Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?
- Thread starter Mulkhoran
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mkletch
First Post
aliensex said:Grog, you are a genious
Well, that an overestimation if I ever heard one. It almost cancels the rest of your post ... but not quite.
aliensex said:
But we are not discussing low magic. That was not in the premise for this thread. We are talking the standard 3E campaign, GH or FR. High magic. But in the case that you give, all magic is indeed broken. But 3E is a combat system more than anything else, and if you are using it primarily for something else, I'm sure there is a system out there that better meets your requirements.
aliensex said:
I only wish this were true. What it comes down to is whether or not the same percentage of the 'bad guys' has access to Haste as the party. If only the 'boss' has Haste, but 3 of 4 characters are hasted via various means (a typical situation in many campaigns), then Haste is not balanced.
This comes back to the tactics and availability of Haste. If it is the focus of every possible opponent, then they likely have little else. Especially if they are expected to have slow scrolls, too.
-Fletch!
To continue on what grog said, also let's say that the wizard or sorc used up nearly all his spells for a combat through haste. Alright, so now he's almost spent. So he uses one of his last spells, and casts haste on the fighter or cleric next round. So while the wizard is out of combat practically, the fighter and cleric can continue to dish it out.
Ok, for all you anti-hasters out there;
What if the group added another player that created another equal level wizard, instead of the haste spell? Would that be overpowered? I mean this wizard would get a whole round of actions, maybe even *gasp* another quickened spell! He would effectively double the hit points of the original wizard! He would split attacks! Add double the amount of total spells! Yikes, now that would be overpowered! As a good DM in this situation, you would defiantely have to rule 0 adding any more players to your game.
That being said, haste does break the mechanics of the game, as does slow and a number of other specific instances (possibly even attacks per round given the 6 second model of 3e). The game infers that no matter what a character's speed is, no matter how high thier dexterity, no matter how quick thier mind, that they only get a standard+move equivilent action each round. I realize that once you introduce magic that physics goes out the window, but in this case, you're using magic not to break physics, but to break the game itself. Basically using magic to cheat and I think that is a poor design decision.
Also, haste throws a big rock into the easily unsettled waters of character balance that ripples through the rest of the game. A character with haste is going to be nearly exponetially better in combat than the same character wihtout haste. I don't think that this could be said for any other "buff" type spell, although I'm certainly open for suggestions. This problem can easily create some character envy, unless you're gaming with egoless players, and we all know how often that happens.
What if the group added another player that created another equal level wizard, instead of the haste spell? Would that be overpowered? I mean this wizard would get a whole round of actions, maybe even *gasp* another quickened spell! He would effectively double the hit points of the original wizard! He would split attacks! Add double the amount of total spells! Yikes, now that would be overpowered! As a good DM in this situation, you would defiantely have to rule 0 adding any more players to your game.
That being said, haste does break the mechanics of the game, as does slow and a number of other specific instances (possibly even attacks per round given the 6 second model of 3e). The game infers that no matter what a character's speed is, no matter how high thier dexterity, no matter how quick thier mind, that they only get a standard+move equivilent action each round. I realize that once you introduce magic that physics goes out the window, but in this case, you're using magic not to break physics, but to break the game itself. Basically using magic to cheat and I think that is a poor design decision.
Also, haste throws a big rock into the easily unsettled waters of character balance that ripples through the rest of the game. A character with haste is going to be nearly exponetially better in combat than the same character wihtout haste. I don't think that this could be said for any other "buff" type spell, although I'm certainly open for suggestions. This problem can easily create some character envy, unless you're gaming with egoless players, and we all know how often that happens.
After taking a lot of what different people have said about haste, considering different types of games, different types of casters, different situations, etc, and adding personal experience, I believe I have formulated my two cents on haste. Here goes:
For a wizard in most situations, haste fits into the grand scheme of things pretty well. It isn't too overpowered, but is still quite useful in some situations.
In the hands of a sorcerer, it is a little bit grayer. It isn't too difficult for a sorcerer to abuse haste if they aren't challenged in the correct way. But, in the hands of a fairly good DM, it is possible to overcome it (though doing so may involve tactics that annoy some PCs).
Items that have haste (wands, scrolls, boots, armor, etc) seem to be unbalancing. It's just too easy to use and abuse. Wands and scrolls allow it to be used too much and at any time needed (as well as by rogues). Clothing allows it to be used by any character at all whenever they want it. Combining these items with the previously mentioned abilities of spellcasters, it can become an easily abused spell by a party, leaving the DM no choice but to either a) live with it, and give the characters harder battles to even things out, or b) make all of their encounters have at least some aspect of them involve countering the spell (either with a counter spelling option, or by simply wearing the players down over the course of a long day with a ton of encounters).
So that's my take on haste, until someone can show me otherwise. My idea to stop haste from being a problem? No hasting items. An occasional scroll may be allowed, but definetally not a library of them. No wands, and definetally no boots or armor. As for weapons or items that store spells, I would probably have to test it out before I could make a good call, but I would lean against it.
For a wizard in most situations, haste fits into the grand scheme of things pretty well. It isn't too overpowered, but is still quite useful in some situations.
In the hands of a sorcerer, it is a little bit grayer. It isn't too difficult for a sorcerer to abuse haste if they aren't challenged in the correct way. But, in the hands of a fairly good DM, it is possible to overcome it (though doing so may involve tactics that annoy some PCs).
Items that have haste (wands, scrolls, boots, armor, etc) seem to be unbalancing. It's just too easy to use and abuse. Wands and scrolls allow it to be used too much and at any time needed (as well as by rogues). Clothing allows it to be used by any character at all whenever they want it. Combining these items with the previously mentioned abilities of spellcasters, it can become an easily abused spell by a party, leaving the DM no choice but to either a) live with it, and give the characters harder battles to even things out, or b) make all of their encounters have at least some aspect of them involve countering the spell (either with a counter spelling option, or by simply wearing the players down over the course of a long day with a ton of encounters).
So that's my take on haste, until someone can show me otherwise. My idea to stop haste from being a problem? No hasting items. An occasional scroll may be allowed, but definetally not a library of them. No wands, and definetally no boots or armor. As for weapons or items that store spells, I would probably have to test it out before I could make a good call, but I would lean against it.
two said:
Are you kidding? A spell that's the only way to save the party's fighter when he gets dominated, can serve as a potential counter to ANY spell, can remove all sorts of bad effects enemies love to place on the party, can remove all sorts of buff spells from the enemy, etc. That's easily worth a 9th level spell slot.
You say why bother dispelling magic when you can just cast Meteor Swarm instead? Well, you can make that argument at any spell level. Why bother casting a 3rd level Dispel Magic when you can just cast a Fireball instead? The answer is, sometimes the Dispel is going to be more beneficial to the party than an offensive spell. And if some of the spells the enemy has on him are fire protections, Meteor Swarm isn't going to be very effective. If you run up against a tank cleric with a dozen buff spells on him, Dispel Magic is going to mean the difference between facing an enemy with second-rate combat ability and facing a potentially lethal killing machine.
In fact, I would submit that NO spell, not even Haste, has as much potential to turn the tide of a battle as a properly used Dispel Magic. If burning a 9th level spell slot was the only way to get that benefit, you can bet most people would do it without a second thought.
Last edited:
mkletch
First Post
demadog said:
Though this was obviously a trash post, I will reply anyway. Good idea, anyway.
Adding another wizard means that there is another 'soft target' for the enemy that the front-liners must (or should, I guess) protect. Plus, XP gets split even further, as does loot. No, adding new players is remarkably balanced (even NPCs, mercenaries, followers, cohorts, etc.)
-Fletch!
