Do you think Haste is too powerful as is?

[WizarDru]

Now I'm confused.

Curse you, "Wizard"Dru, if that is your REAL class! You EVIL TROLL! Misleading me like that. Or you would have, if I knew what I was getting at so I'd know if I was being led away from it, or not.

Now I'm even more confused.

My work here is done.

 

[Lela]

My 2 coppers:

First of all, screw all this crap about spell slots being used up. One word: wand.

We aren't talking about Haste taking up a slot. We're talking about the two other spells a round you'll be using.

Now, unlike most DM's (myself included), if you can give out three to four encounters per day rather than just the one biggie, you'll notice the problem start to fade. The characters will be much more careful on what spells they use when they're going to die later.

Now, if you want a useful wand, go for Cure Serious Wounds. They'll use that one a lot more than Haste. And we aren't planning to nerf that spell, even though every character wants it.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

We aren't talking about Haste taking up a slot. We're talking about the two other spells a round you'll be using.

Except that:

a) you are going to use those spells with or without haste. It takes 2 desintigrates to kill 2 giants, it doesn't matter if you do it in 1 round or 2 (except that if you take 2 rounds the 2nd giant might kill you first).

b) non-spell casters can benifit from haste, and they aren't going to use twice as many spells.

Now, unlike most DM's (myself included), if you can give out three to four encounters per day rather than just the one biggie, you'll notice the problem start to fade. The characters will be much more careful on what spells they use when they're going to die later.

I'm totally missing your point. I have no idea what you are getting at. With 50 charges, 3-4 encounters a day isn't going to be too many to use haste in every one, and it isn't too many to have a sorc casting 2 spells every round.

Now, if you want a useful wand, go for Cure Serious Wounds. They'll use that one a lot more than Haste. And we aren't planning to nerf that spell, even though every character wants it.

Yeah, because at level 25, that wand of cure serious wounds is going to help me kill an ancient dragon before it gets an action.

-- Spikey

 

[Numion]

We aren't talking about Haste taking up a slot. We're talking about the two other spells a round you'll be using.

Now, unlike most DM's (myself included), if you can give out three to four encounters per day rather than just the one biggie, you'll notice the problem start to fade. The characters will be much more careful on what spells they use when they're going to die later.

Now, if you want a useful wand, go for Cure Serious Wounds. They'll use that one a lot more than Haste. And we aren't planning to nerf that spell, even though every character wants it.

By that logic Time Stop must suck, since it'll use up spell slots much faster!

To counter your argument, sure the spellcaster doesn't have to use two spells a round, but it's just mighty powerful to do so if need be. Actually using two spells a round decreases the usage of party resources, as the encounters will end quicklier and less harm will be done to the PCs.

And don't go for cure serious wands. Average cost for a hp healed is 3x5x750/(50*(3x4.5+5))=12.16 gp. With a simple wand of cure light wounds, it comes to 750/(50*5.5)=2.72 gp.

There

 

[Caliban]

That's kind of the point. Haste CAN let you kill very powerful opponents before they get a chance to do much to you.

When facing a single opponent, a fighter can generally do more damage than an equivalent level non-hasted wizard in one round.

Except that a wizard can use any one of a variety of Save or die/be incapacitated spells, and take one or more opponents a round, even when not hasted.

Haste allows that wizard to as much damage as a fighter in one round to multiple opponents.

And in my experience, wizards aren't generally dripping with wands, and most attack spells (outside of magic missile and ice storm) aren't nearly as effective when they come from a wand.

I play a spellcaster, and I like Haste. But I can't deny that it is more powerful than any other 3rd level spell out there, and Mass Haste is one of the most powerful 6th level spells.

 

[Lela]

Except that:

a) you are going to use those spells with or without haste. It takes 2 desintigrates to kill 2 giants, it doesn't matter if you do it in 1 round or 2 (except that if you take 2 rounds the 2nd giant might kill you first).

b) non-spell casters can benifit from haste, and they aren't going to use twice as many spells.

I agree. But don't forget that the fighter (who doesn't have to save spells) should be able to take down that other giant for you without you wasting a spell slot on him.

I'm totally missing your point. I have no idea what you are getting at.

I know. Let me see if I can defuddle my thoughts for you.

With 50 charges, 3-4 encounters a day isn't going to be too many to use haste in every one, and it isn't too many to have a sorc casting 2 spells every round.

4 encoutners at, say, 3 rounds each. That's 12 spell slots for a normal non-hasted spellcaster. Now, double that with a Wand of Haste. It comes out to 20 spells a day (after subtracting off the wand spells).

Then add the chance that they might come across your dragon. They don't want to be wasted then.

Yeah, because at level 25, that wand of cure serious wounds is going to help me kill an ancient dragon before it gets an action.

-- Spikey

Um, most of the time that dragon will see you coming. Why hasn't he prepared a ready-action to take you down when you get there? Or an Anti-Magic field? DR isn't affected by it.

Then again, if he doesn't know you're coming, Haste won't make too much of a difference.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

It is slightly too good. i think a lot of peopel here extremely overstate how good it is.(the turn it to the pathetic d20 odern, or a 8th-9th elvel spell bunch) But it is flat out better than virtually any other 3rd level spell. Persoanlly I think slow is better at most levels, making slow IMO an insanely powerful spell for 3rd level. I think place it at 4th level and your fairly good, that delays its aquisition a bit (though 4th level isn't swiming in good spells so it would probably still be a no brainer) I'd also likely drop the AC boost to +2 or maybe remove it entirely. If you remove the AC boost I think it could fit in as a powerful but not overly powerful 3rd level spell.

Persoanlly I think they should rework the spell lists a lot more giving less attention to their historical placement, and changing a lot of spells levels like they did for stinking cloud. (I think a lot of 4th level spells could be dropped down to 3rd level, and a few 3rd could be put up to 4th and virtually evey spell level has some spells that need elvel changes for all the spellcasting classes)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Now, unlike most DM's (myself included), if you can give out three to four encounters per day rather than just the one biggie, you'll notice the problem start to fade. The characters will be much more careful on what spells they use when they're going to die later.

I think it's still unbalanced in the hands of an NPC.

 

[Lela]

I think it's still unbalanced in the hands of an NPC.

That I can agree on. But sometimes the NPC needs that kind of help.

What I've noticed as DM is that the players know all their abilities very well. I, as DM, don't do as well with NPCs or even monsters. I have to keep track of upwards 4 or 5 (sometimes higher) different characters or monsters. I just can't remember all that they can do when it comes time to play them. Highlighting what I want to do only helps a little and I always remember things after the battle that I should have done but forgot about. When I find something like Haste to give them an edge, I think it's worth it.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

My opinion

Since this particular thread has gone on for several pages and shows no sign of slowing down, this opinion will most likely be buried. And since it is past the 6th page, it is not too likely to be read by many. So be it.

My definition of an over powered ANYTHING is as follows:

Lets say you are going into a fight that is at least EQUAL in power to your party.

As an Attacker:
Would you always (95% of the time or more) choose to cast Haste at the expense of other viable options?

As a Defender:
Do you find it worth while to use time and / or resources to prepare a defense specifically against Haste at the expense of other strategic and tactical considerations?

If a typical party finds its self about to fight a Large Dragon, an identical hostile party, or other difficult foe, they will probably feel compelled to cast or use Haste. If they want to cast a single target buff spell, there are many choices. Blink, StoneSkin, Fire Shield, Improved Invisibility, or Mirror Image. All are likely to be useful in a variety of circumstances. They could also choose instead ot attack. Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Ice Storm, and Enervation are all powerful attacks. But Haste is simply more useful then all of those.

As a Defender, someone could choose to either use spells or items to gain elemental resistance, protection against summoned creatures, protection from melee attacks, protection from ranged attacks, or a form of escape. Dispel Magic is truly a great spell, but are you taking to cancel a StoneSkin? Are you trying to remove Mirror Image and Blink? Or are you most afraid of an opponent using Haste?

For me, the answer to the first question at least is yes. I cannot think of any circumstances where using Haste is a bad idea. As a chosen action, its potential benefits out do all other actions I can think of. I can think of no other 3rd level spell that is as helpful to cast. I can think of no other magical effect that is as useful for a similar cost.

As for the second question, the answer is almost a Yes. If you know your opponent is going to use Haste, you will want to counter it before most other considerations. But most tactics that work against Haste are also effective for other considerations as well. Slow is a great spell to cast anyway. Against melee attackers, it is crippling. Dispel Magic will take down more then just Haste. Haste also has a reasonably short duration, and if you can keep the party from attacking you for the duration. Throwing a few Wall spells between you and the hasted opponents can keep you safe long enough. Turning Invisible and waiting the spell out will work as well. You can also just enter a Rope Trick and consume some healing items / spells. Parties of Humanoids can just take Run actions and scatter to minimize casualties.

The spell is not broken to the point of being game breaking, but it is way too useful for a 3rd level spell with an easily found component. StoneSkin is arguably more useful, but it costs 250 gp per casting, and is 4th level. I dont mind it being a 3rd leve spell, but I think it should at least have a costly component requirement.

END COMMUNICATION