D&D 5E Do you think they will go back to driders being a curse instead of a blessing?

[Stormonu]

Coming in late, but I'm hoping that dridership will be show as both possibly a way to curse/outcast a drow, or as a method certain drow might use a boon or reward.

So, both.

 

[Campbell]

I like the idea of it being a blessing for male drow:

Blessing? You call that a blessing? Turning into some demon infused spider thing and being taken in by our priestesses to be their play thing? I quite like my life the way it is. I have several matrons eyeing me to be one of their concubines. I get to kill surface elves and if I play my cards right I might be up for promotion soon. Eyes commander with murder in his eyes.​

Of course they wouldn't say so in polite company. I don't particularly see most male drow as being particularly devoted to Lolth. Afraid of her sure. That's only smart, but I imagine they would be focused on temporal concerns for the most part - acquiring station, comfort and wealth as best as they are able to.

 

[Sunseeker]

Sure, I can change it. But, you missed my bigger point. If you want to write anything for Dungeon, or Dragon, for example, you will have to follow this canon. You will never be able to buy a product that doesn't follow this canon, which, for me, means I simply will not buy any product based on this lore. I never did before either since the lore does not interest me in the slightest.

Alright. So what? I mean really you're saying you'll never buy products with lore you don't like. News flash: you and everybody else. They can't make everyone happy and unless you are personally going to purchase an extra copy for everyone who doesn't like YOUR preferred lore, you're just another number like the rest of us.

And frankly, I don't think there's a reasonable way to accommodate you. You're asking for published adventures without setting lore, that just...doesn't work. You're basically asking for a book of context-less crunch with no fluff(or at least no fluff you disapprove of).

If WOTC doesn't create worlds and stories I like, I don't buy them. I encourage everyone to do the same. If they make things I do like, I buy them, I likewise encourage people to do the same.

What I discourage is demanding that WOTC only publish things the way you want, which it feels like you're demanding, and really, you and everyone else are going to be unhappy with something. Be it drow, primordials, tieflings, dragonborn, gnomes, dwarves(I hate them my precious, hate them!), but these things MAY be included in the game and they WILL have fluff, and any one of them could set off others. As much as I like my crunch, I am far, far less interested it in without fluff...even if it's fluff I don't particularly like (I like Tieflings and Dragonborn, but hate their lore for example).

I mean, for me, Lolth and whatnot belongs in the GDQ original series of modules. The lore that is being talked about here contradicts those modules, which means it's largely useless for me. The fact that it in no way interests me doesn't help either. To me, changing the lore means they might gain me as a customer. But, because any changes are verboten, I simply won't buy the products.

I'm sorry...but complaining that DDN/5e doesn't mesh with the GDQ of AD&D is somewhat absurd. I realize DDN is trying to be as backwards compatible as possible, but as I stated, restated and repeated, it can't please everyone. It cannot be compatible with everything. Some things will be overruled by yes, what is popular and what sells, or what they think is plain superior.

BUT: I'm still not getting where you are getting this idea that the lore cannot be changed. It seems to me you are complaining that WOTC will not change the official lore, and extrapolating that to mean YOU cannot change your home-game lore. I'm not sure why you have this idea, but perhaps I am misreading you. When you run official products you get the official story, we all know that when we purchase the product, but we are in full control once we take that book home. If we choose not to exercise that control, well, that's on us, not WOTC.

 

[Hussar]

Why would I buy material I don't like?

If they continue to support the current canon I don't like it so I won't buy it.

And note I said nothing about supplements. I said it doesn't deserve to be enshrined in core. Supplements particularly setting specific supplements are obviously a different animal.

But this thread exactly proves my point. [MENTION=2955]Forever[/MENTION] slayer wants to excise the later changes to drow, not because the changes are bad per se but simply because they contradict what came before.

For some, the idea of having alternative choices is bad. For some we must maintain lore over any other consideration.

Or to put it another way, why can't we have both versions and let DM's choose? And that way later official products can go either way too. Now everyone gets what they want.

 

[Sunseeker]

Why would I buy material I don't like?

If they continue to support the current canon I don't like it so I won't buy it.

And I agree that you shouldn't. I said as much. I don't buy products I don't like, because products I don't like I won't use.

I have the time and energy to create my own worlds and stories, so I do. I completely agree that you shouldn't buy anything you don't like.

And note I said nothing about supplements. I said it doesn't deserve to be enshrined in core. Supplements particularly setting specific supplements are obviously a different animal.

But this thread exactly proves my point. @Forever slayer wants to excise the later changes to drow, not because the changes are bad per se but simply because they contradict what came before.

In response to this I'll reiterate what I've said before: After 40 years, things change, sometimes in contradictory matters, and while DDN is trying to please as many people as possible (a laudable goal is not a tad misguided), things that weren't will be. Things that are won't be. That's just how the cookie crumbles and they can't please everyone.

For some, the idea of having alternative choices is bad. For some we must maintain lore over any other consideration.

Or to put it another way, why can't we have both versions and let DM's choose? And that way later official products can go either way too. Now everyone gets what they want.

Because it's not two versions of D&D, one with Lloth and one without. It's your version without Lloth as a goddess, and mine with, and that other guy's without Lloth at all, and that other person's with Lloth as a male deity and patron of light elves, and that other guy's with Lloth as a snake-themed diety and so on and so forth.

As much as a dictionary of rules as "Core" might allow supplements to bring the fluff, I've got a dictionary and it's a very, very dull read. On the other hand, I have older edition manuals which run in particular ways that I enjoy and am unconcerned if DDN runs like them. While I hope DDN plays favor to some parts of older editions (4e with 3.x templates and some standard form of LA would be a dream come true), I expect DDN to be a beast of it's own and not merely a hodge-podge of this and that from the past. And simply put, I don't think a crunch-only, fluff-less Core would sell very well, at least I wouldn't be interested.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Because it's not two versions of D&D, one with Lloth and one without. It's your version without Lloth as a goddess, and mine with, and that other guy's without Lloth at all, and that other person's with Lloth as a male deity and patron of light elves, and that other guy's with Lloth as a snake-themed diety and so on and so forth.

/snip

eh what? Who is arguing for this? We're talking about supporting two different options. Both of us, at some point in D&D's history have been right. So why does your version get to take precedence while mine gets excised entirely?

But, be that as it may, this is what I would do. I looked at the Dark Elf entry in the 2e Monstrous Manual and it works perfectly for what I want, with a single additional paragraph:

Long ago, dark elves were part of the elven race that roamed the world's forests. Not long after they were created, though, the elves found themselves torn into rival factions+one following the tenets of evil, the other owning the ideals of good (or at least neutrality). A great civil war between the elves followed, and the selfish elves who followed the paths of evil and chaos were driven into the depths of the earth, into the bleak, lightless caverns and deep tunnels of the underworld. These dark elves became the drow.
The drow no longer wish to live upon the surface of the earth. In fact, few who live on the surface ever see a drow. But the dark elves resent the elves and faeries who drove them away, and scheme against those that dwell in the sunlight.
Drow live in magnificently dark, gloomy cities in the underworld that few humans or demihumans ever see. They construct their buildings entirely out of stone and minerals, carved into weird, fantastic shapes. Those few surface creatures that have seen a dark elf city (and returned to tell the tale) report that it is the stuff of which nightmares are made.
Drow society is fragmented into many opposing noble houses and merchant families, all scrambling for power. In fact, all drow carry brooches inscribed with the symbol of the merchant or noble group they are allied with, though they hide these and do not show them often. The drow believe that the strongest should rule; their rigid class system, with a long and complicated list of titles and prerogatives, is based on the idea.
They worship a dark goddess, called Lolth by some, and her priestesses hold very high places in society. Since most drow priests are female, women tend to fill nearly all positions of great importance.
Drow fighters go through rigorous training while they are young. Those who fail the required tests are killed at the program's conclusion. That is why dark elf fighters of less than 2nd level are rarely seen outside a drow city.
Drow often use giant lizards as pack animals, and frequently take bugbears or troglodytes as servants. Drow cities are havens for evil beings, including mind flayers, and drow are allied with many of the underworld's evil inhabitants. On the other hand, they are constantly at war with many of their neighbors beneath the earth, including dwarves or dark gnomes (svirfneblin) who settle to close to a drow city. Dark elves frequently keep slaves of all types, including past allies who have failed to live up to drow expectations.

Great, fantastic, we've got flavour that is not tied to any setting AND we've tied Drow to a number of other monsters. Fantastic. Now, let's add the Drider bit:

Driders
These strange creatures have the head and torso of a drow and the legs and lower body of a giant spider. Driders are created by the drow's dark goddess. When a dark elf of above-average ability reaches 6th level, the goddess may put him or her through a special test. Failures become driders.
Driders are able to cast all spells a normal drow can use once per day. They also retain any magical or clerical skills they had before transformation. A majority of driders (60%) were priests of 6th or 7th level before they were changed, all other driders were mages of 6th, 7th, or 8th level.
Driders always fight as 7 Hit Die monsters. They often use swords or axes, though many carry bows. Driders can bite for ld4 points of damage, and those bitten must save vs. poison with a -2 penalty or be paralyzed for 1-2 turns.
Because they have failed their goddess's test, driders are outcasts from their own communities. Driders are usually found alone or with 2d6 huge spiders (10% chance), rather than with drow or other driders. They are violent, aggressive creatures that favor blood over all types of food. They stalk their victims tirelessly, waiting for the right chance to strike.

There, that's [MENTION=2955]Forever[/MENTION] Slayer taken care of. Now, let's make everyone happy:

Some Drow communities take a different approach, seeing Driders not as cursed but blessed by Lolth. Their great strength and power makes them revered as being touched by the goddess. Such Driders are treated as holy ones and accorded great honours within that community.

There, now everyone is happy. None of the setting specific flavour is enshrined in core, while the creatures still have lots of flavour. Done.

Was that really so unreasonable?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think one not-insignificant motivator for turning driders into a blessing rather than a curse was that, as a cursed freak, their novelty seems kind of wasted--you wouldn't see driders mixing with drow. Driders in a drow warband on the other hand makes things more interesting from a visual and tactical perspective, and 4e was big on visuals.

The reason I like the quote above is it's a compromise. Driderism is still a curse, but it gives a reason to see those cool drider miniatures out on the table since they're no longer necessarily societal outcasts. The individual's failure is still a benefit to the community.

It's a neat blurb!

One thing that it suggests is that driders might work better as solo monsters (lone drider in the wilds of the underdark) and drow work better as group monsters/minions.

 

[Savage Wombat]

There, now everyone is happy. None of the setting specific flavour is enshrined in core, while the creatures still have lots of flavour. Done.

Was that really so unreasonable?

Honestly, I think ENWorld would be perfectly happy with that.

The problem from my point of view is that WotC isn't happy with it - it's not Intellectual Property enough.

 

[pemerton]

The term of "the Seldarine" to refer to the Elven pantheon isn't FR-specific. The first use of the term (that I'm aware of) is in the non-campaign-specific 2E book Monster Mythology.

As best I know it originated in the "Gods of the Elves" article in Dragon 60 (1982).

The first occurence of Lolth as a fallen Elven god I'm aware of is in Dragon 155 (1990) - she was the fallen god Megwandir, once loved but now hunted by the snow-elven god Tarsellis Meunniduin.

 

[Kinak]

Driders thus occupy an odd place in drow society. On the one hand, they failed Lolth's test and were punished, making them deserving of scorn. On the other hand, they are now absolutely loyal; the word of a drider might as well come straight from Lolth herself, so everyone pays close attention to them.

Can't XP you, but this is excellent.

Cheers!
Kinak