TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
You might have me confused with someone else. This certainly isn't "wishful thinking".
You've made the call. Own it! When those new books come out, with their many changes, in 2024, we will all have been warned.
D&D 5E Do you think we'll see revised core books in 2024? (And why I think we will)
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You've made the call. Own it! When those new books come out, with their many changes, in 2024, we will all have been warned.
Demographically, New Zealand has a predominantly white population. It is, in historical terms, a British settler colony, and at that level can be compared to Australia, Canada and the US.
The reason Maori were cast as Uruk-Hai is because Uruk-Hai are brown, not white. It's not mysterious, and frankly I'm baffled that you joke about this and note the contrast with the all-white heroes, while denying that there's anything racist in the pulp and fantasy heritage of tropes that D&D draws upon.
As far as I can tell, the "other perspective" is the claim that there is no racial context/heritage to the tropes present in pulp or fantasy.
I've considered that claim. I just don't think it's true. JRRT didn't just wake up one day and imagine a whole race of baddies who are dark-skinned and fight with scimitars, and whose allies are "Easterlings" and "Southrons". He drew upon a repertoire of readily-available tropes and ideas.
Mercurius
Legend
When did I joke? All I said is that Jackson hired people who lived in New Zealand, and Maoris better fit the mold of how Tolkien described Uruk-Hai. Nor did I deny that there's racism in fantasy tradition--there's racism throughout human history and tradition, and fantasy is no different. What I'm saying is that you and others are employing a very narrow, one-sided hermeneutic that only sees one thing and ignores everything else or, worse, sees everything as opposed to it. "If you're not with us, you're against us. You're one of them."
As for the heroes, again, they fit the context--that is, what Tolkien described. How would you have had Jackson cast the characters, especially given that he wanted to stay true to Tolkien's vision? If a film-maker was recreating an (insert non-European ethnicity) myth, would you take issue if they only cast people of that ethnicity?
Yeah, you're not really hearing what I'm saying. There are many perspectives. Unfortunately, most, I've found, fall into a duality: the one you advocate and is popular here ("A"), and the "other perspective" that you mention that others hold ("B"). I'm speaking from a different view from either ("C"), although see partial truths in both A and B. I'm trying (and evidently failing) to push the conversation to a more dialectical and multi-perspectival approach, one that considers A, B, C, and others. What I see, time and time again, is people not really willing to entertain anything outside of their own preferred interpretive framework; and those advocating the "other perspective" are generally not better (and in some ways, worse). Advocates of "A" see anything different as "B," and vice versa. I suppose the only real recourse for those of "C" and other perspectives is to opt out and wait until the dust settles between A and B, so as not to be continually misconstrued as one or the other.
teitan
Legend
I don't even see a 5.2, I see complete compatibility refresh with additional options and the optional rules from Tasha's implemented with the "standard" approach as examples of how to build a cultural heritage, keeping legacy races intact while giving a new option. I see new subclasses added with no major overhauls to existing subclasses except for tweaks here and there. Maybe another bonus popular race like Goblin, Orc or Firbolg added in. I see an expanded Monster Manual with some unpublished classic monsters added but with TOF and Volo's Guide remaining in print. Maybe monsters from adventures. I see expansions to the DMG being new magic items, chase rules, seafaring rules, & vehicle rules brought in. Mostly an art refresh with fancy covers. a 5.0125.
Don Durito
Hero
The thing that needs to be done, which would create something along the lines of compatability issues, is a review of the saving throw maths.
Of course, seeing as their data suggests people don't usually play high levels they may not bother.
(Although I personally have been in the situation as early as 9th level when I've just had to say to the party "don't count on me to do anything in this fight as I'm unlikely to past my save vs dragonfear" - I'm sure it was a highly overlevelled dragon but I dont think that really mitigates it).
Of course, seeing as their data suggests people don't usually play high levels they may not bother.
(Although I personally have been in the situation as early as 9th level when I've just had to say to the party "don't count on me to do anything in this fight as I'm unlikely to past my save vs dragonfear" - I'm sure it was a highly overlevelled dragon but I dont think that really mitigates it).
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What is "perspective C"?
teitan
Legend
He explained it pretty clearly, that it is both can be true but partially true. Example, did Tolkien use the Mongolian hordes as the basis for the Orc hordes and their allies? Yes. Is it inherently racist? Not necessarily. Racist would be explicit denigration and suppression of Mongols based on their race. In replacing that idea with Orcs, the "archetype" of the Mongolian, Genghis Khan led hordes that ravaged Europe, becomes a fantasy story but not a story about Mongolians, but a story about Orcs in the same way that Dracula was inspired by Vlad Tepes, nothing about Dracula is really Vlad but by looking at it through a microscope you can very much see the common roots or inspirations. But Mongolians aren't corrupted elves warped by an evil god to serve him and his heirs as soldiers in a war.
imagineGod
Legend
Has anyone here watched a Chinese mythic movie or read mythical works from China translated into English?
The movies are sometimes show an overt Imperialist attitude. And almost all the cast are Asian. The enemies of the nascent Imperium are usually Asian too or more often monstrous humanoids.
There is also the divine mandate of heaven at play.
That goes back a long way into mythology.
Even myths on the South Americas before the European Colonizing missionaries destroyed many historic works narrate Imperial ambitions by natives in those lands.
A goog vs evil trope is often times presented with the evil usually monstrous.
To think that the tropes of white American designers of last century are somehow unique in painting heroes as human and enemies Monstrous is not to have read literature and mythology from across the world.
Even the Romani people, and not the fictional Vistani of Ravenloft, but real Romani people from Eastern European literature fall into tropes by native I authors from that region with high Romani populations.
To imply that Gary Gygax was somehow intellectually lazy or even mildly racist is dishonest when view from this century now instead of from the perspective of the lived Zeitgeist then.
Ironic how alignment of good vs evil is suddenly a thing, but not using those words, to describe bad-wrong-fun by modern writers. Because if there is no objective good nor evil, nothing can be wrong. Mythic stories of good and evil are simply other words for right and wrong that our societies still depend upon. Obviously, what is right and wrong changes over time and from culture to culture and geography to geography.
So thinking white authors of the 19th century are objectively wrong today, but Asian authors of that same period or earlier are ignored as ever being wrong, is dishonest. All global human mythology shares similar tropes.
And while some of us here try to showcase how good we are, we talk of diverse art without considering that a financial business that uses diverse art to enrich mostly white senior managers and shareholders is not any different from cultural appropriation and exploitation.
I will not mention names, but a publisher I know rather print the books abroad because it is cheaper than help provide work for locals. During the pandemic also sacked some workers. But gets praised for diversity, when most of the board is white and financial beneficiaries are white. This is not a white problem but a Capitalist one. In Japan, an expose showed many animators worked for poverty wages while the executives raked in profits for successfully Anime movies.
The D&D gold economy is powered by Capitalism too. That requires expensive loot to purchase. .Traditional roots of D&D tropes of Dungeons are for raiding out of sight. and Dragons as symbolic of treasure hoarders and the final boss fight.
You could argue adventurers should use their wealth to build schools for NPCs to lift them up in level and status like adventurers. Maybe a future D&D will do that. But like the " Ship of a Theseus" is it then still Dungeons and Dragons?
The movies are sometimes show an overt Imperialist attitude. And almost all the cast are Asian. The enemies of the nascent Imperium are usually Asian too or more often monstrous humanoids.
There is also the divine mandate of heaven at play.
That goes back a long way into mythology.
Even myths on the South Americas before the European Colonizing missionaries destroyed many historic works narrate Imperial ambitions by natives in those lands.
A goog vs evil trope is often times presented with the evil usually monstrous.
To think that the tropes of white American designers of last century are somehow unique in painting heroes as human and enemies Monstrous is not to have read literature and mythology from across the world.
Even the Romani people, and not the fictional Vistani of Ravenloft, but real Romani people from Eastern European literature fall into tropes by native I authors from that region with high Romani populations.
To imply that Gary Gygax was somehow intellectually lazy or even mildly racist is dishonest when view from this century now instead of from the perspective of the lived Zeitgeist then.
Ironic how alignment of good vs evil is suddenly a thing, but not using those words, to describe bad-wrong-fun by modern writers. Because if there is no objective good nor evil, nothing can be wrong. Mythic stories of good and evil are simply other words for right and wrong that our societies still depend upon. Obviously, what is right and wrong changes over time and from culture to culture and geography to geography.
So thinking white authors of the 19th century are objectively wrong today, but Asian authors of that same period or earlier are ignored as ever being wrong, is dishonest. All global human mythology shares similar tropes.
And while some of us here try to showcase how good we are, we talk of diverse art without considering that a financial business that uses diverse art to enrich mostly white senior managers and shareholders is not any different from cultural appropriation and exploitation.
I will not mention names, but a publisher I know rather print the books abroad because it is cheaper than help provide work for locals. During the pandemic also sacked some workers. But gets praised for diversity, when most of the board is white and financial beneficiaries are white. This is not a white problem but a Capitalist one. In Japan, an expose showed many animators worked for poverty wages while the executives raked in profits for successfully Anime movies.
The D&D gold economy is powered by Capitalism too. That requires expensive loot to purchase. .Traditional roots of D&D tropes of Dungeons are for raiding out of sight. and Dragons as symbolic of treasure hoarders and the final boss fight.
You could argue adventurers should use their wealth to build schools for NPCs to lift them up in level and status like adventurers. Maybe a future D&D will do that. But like the " Ship of a Theseus" is it then still Dungeons and Dragons?
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
I don't think we will see a new half edition release or a minor change release, but I do think that we will see 50th anniversary special cover books for everything. If I'm wrong and they do release changed core books, it's going to be a 5.4 or 5.5. If they don't make significant changes, there won't be incentive enough to get a lot of players to buy the new books.
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