Fifth Element
Legend
Shouldn't that be "rock gnomes"?Maliki said:
Do you want gnomes in the first phb?
- Thread starter Doug McCrae
- Start date
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
I agree; this is a good idea.Klaus said:
Fredrik Svanberg
First Post
No, and I don't want half-elves, half-orcs or tieflings either.
Dwarf, elf, halfling and human would be just fine. If we need something else, how about some of the other non-hybrid humanoid races? Kobolds, lizardfolk, goblins and hobgoblins could all fill the shoes of the less interesting old core races. If I never see a half-anything again I won't miss them.
Dwarf, elf, halfling and human would be just fine. If we need something else, how about some of the other non-hybrid humanoid races? Kobolds, lizardfolk, goblins and hobgoblins could all fill the shoes of the less interesting old core races. If I never see a half-anything again I won't miss them.
mhacdebhandia
Explorer
I voted "Yes", but there is one reason for that and one caveat that goes with it:
Reason: My favourite D&D setting at the moment is Eberron, and all of the current core races are important to the setting - and Eberron's gnomes definitely have a "point".
Caveat: I'd rather leave gnomes (or half-orcs) out of the first Player's Handbook than lose the tiefling; as I said in the poll thread about the tiefling's inclusion, I really like what their presence suggests about the importance of fiends in the "implied setting" of Fourth Edition.
Reason: My favourite D&D setting at the moment is Eberron, and all of the current core races are important to the setting - and Eberron's gnomes definitely have a "point".
Caveat: I'd rather leave gnomes (or half-orcs) out of the first Player's Handbook than lose the tiefling; as I said in the poll thread about the tiefling's inclusion, I really like what their presence suggests about the importance of fiends in the "implied setting" of Fourth Edition.
mhacdebhandia
Explorer
The "gnomish niche" in Eberron makes perfect sense, of course.Olgar Shiverstone said:
Mercule
Adventurer
I voted "yes", but with conditions.
Humans, elves, dwarves are pretty much archetypal fantasy races. They must be in there. Even if you play a Talaslanta type game filled with freaks, those archetypes are core to the larger fantasy genre.
Get rid of the half-elf and half-orc. They may be in Tolkien. They may not even be unusual (well, half-elves, at least) in the genre. They just don't have any racial identity or culture. They are really just dead weight in the PHB.
Add one interesting small race. Gnomes are probably more interesting than halflings -- at least there is some possibility to gnomes beyond "little Gypsies" or "pint-sized homebodies". Of course, halflings do have potential, look at Athas or Eberron, but the baseline we've seen the last 30+ years is pretty boring.
Add in something a bit different, even "savage". Half-orc has that annoying half-breed without culture problem. My vote would be hobgoblins or goblins. Both are of human intelligence. The former are very militaristic and both are sneaky. Heck, even stupid orcs would have a niche without being too inhuman (at least as D&D writes them).
If you want something less human, throw in a furry. Catfolk seem to be pretty popular and would be my top pick. I'm not really cheering for them to be added in, but it wouldn't bother me, either.
Changelings or shifters could be good, too. My preferrence would be changelings because I don't want the implications of lycanthrope spawn being neither human nor lycanthrope being a core issue. Plus you have to wonder why all shifters look human, rather than elven, dwarven, or even koboldish. Changelings have the built in disclaimer that that the doppelganger blood sanitizes any other race to a neutral that's hard to nail down.
Tieflings, though, are a complete WTF? Sure, they're interesting, but they should be rare enough that they don't warrant space in the PHB. Yes, I know that we don't know what 4E does to the tiefling, but I don't think assuming the basic definition -- a mortal with some distant fiendish ancestry -- has remained is really too off base.
My fervent hope with the tiefling is that they won't have their own full race write-up, but will be an example of a way to add a thimblefull of some other race to a character. That is a major enough convension to warrant an entry, and tiefling are as good of an example as anything else.
Humans, elves, dwarves are pretty much archetypal fantasy races. They must be in there. Even if you play a Talaslanta type game filled with freaks, those archetypes are core to the larger fantasy genre.
Get rid of the half-elf and half-orc. They may be in Tolkien. They may not even be unusual (well, half-elves, at least) in the genre. They just don't have any racial identity or culture. They are really just dead weight in the PHB.
Add one interesting small race. Gnomes are probably more interesting than halflings -- at least there is some possibility to gnomes beyond "little Gypsies" or "pint-sized homebodies". Of course, halflings do have potential, look at Athas or Eberron, but the baseline we've seen the last 30+ years is pretty boring.
Add in something a bit different, even "savage". Half-orc has that annoying half-breed without culture problem. My vote would be hobgoblins or goblins. Both are of human intelligence. The former are very militaristic and both are sneaky. Heck, even stupid orcs would have a niche without being too inhuman (at least as D&D writes them).
If you want something less human, throw in a furry. Catfolk seem to be pretty popular and would be my top pick. I'm not really cheering for them to be added in, but it wouldn't bother me, either.
Changelings or shifters could be good, too. My preferrence would be changelings because I don't want the implications of lycanthrope spawn being neither human nor lycanthrope being a core issue. Plus you have to wonder why all shifters look human, rather than elven, dwarven, or even koboldish. Changelings have the built in disclaimer that that the doppelganger blood sanitizes any other race to a neutral that's hard to nail down.
Tieflings, though, are a complete WTF? Sure, they're interesting, but they should be rare enough that they don't warrant space in the PHB. Yes, I know that we don't know what 4E does to the tiefling, but I don't think assuming the basic definition -- a mortal with some distant fiendish ancestry -- has remained is really too off base.
My fervent hope with the tiefling is that they won't have their own full race write-up, but will be an example of a way to add a thimblefull of some other race to a character. That is a major enough convension to warrant an entry, and tiefling are as good of an example as anything else.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
In Eberron, I'd argue gnomes are more integral to the setting than dwarves or half-orcs are, in fact, and probably edge out half-elves (although they get a good treatment there as well).mhacdebhandia said:
Doug McCrae
Legend
Good analysis, Mercule. The thing about the more 'out there' races such as tiefling or warforged, is that, while they are harder to fit in to most settings, they are also much more distinctive and interesting.
mhacdebhandia
Explorer
I agree with you about dwarves - I hope Fourth Edition Eberron material "sexes them up" a bit, because they're pretty close to their bog-standard Tolkienesque roots for my taste. Still cool, but I'd like to see more "cutthroat merchant houses" and less "great kingdoms under the mountain".
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