Level Up (A5E) Do you want more monster complexity?

[Neonchameleon]

Some people, including myself, would like to see a return of the 2E monster write ups that included much more than just mechanical stats. I'm not big on a whole page of mechanics myself, its the less crunchier stuff Im after.

Some people, including myself, fround the 2e monster writeups to be just plain obnoxious, leading to something that would be either ignored or cookie-cutter, presenting e.g. "A typical goblin tribe" as the only real organisation and sentences like "For every 40 goblins there will be a leader and his 4 assistants, each having 1 Hit Die" to be horribly deterministic. For me the high point of monster fluff came in, of all things, the 4e Monster Manual 1.

The first thing the 4e MM1 did right was presented differences between monster types in name and mechanics, so your standard kobold militia was called a "kobold tunneller" and your specialist ranged kobold was a "kobold slinger" whose sling shot pots of nasty stuff rather than being an archer. Meanwhile the standard goblin spellcaster wasn't a "level 2 goblin wizard" but a "goblin hex-hurler" with their private spells really selling the nasty and obnoxious nature of hex-hurling as a goblin speciality and how it makes them different from gnome illusionists.

The second thing the 4e MM1 did right was to present suggested encounters in each broad monster type. Sometimes this was dull, the equivalent of "An adult male lion, an adult female lion, and their two cubs" (with three different statblocks) while from memory the Aboleth entry and the Drow entry both included slaves of other species and most of them indicated a social hierarchy due to the multiple different types involved.

What I'd like to see is, for the sapient creatures, three separate organisations of a single paragraph each. For example:

The Knife Cave goblins are the third largest tribe in the Torpenhow Hills and are known locally for their intricate woad tattoos and their massacre of their rivals the Stark Ridge goblins despite the customary truce at the midwinter festival. The tribe itself consists of about seventy adult goblins, all combatants and at any given time a couple of dozen non-combatant goblins under twelve. Their leaders are Ruby the Bloody Handed, a [champion template] and their elder Naggla the Grey, Speaker for Kel'thaz [warlock template]. Scouting and raiding parties, frequently looking for livestock that in lean times may be human or dwarf, consist of not less than a dozen goblins lead by one of Ruby's four current favourites with only Sapphire and Cutter having remained longer than two years, or by Naggla's apprentice Flint.

The Varren's Quarter goblins are a goblin enclave in the city of Lavadeep. One of the poorest parts of Lavadeep, about 300 of the 500 people living there are goblins, making their living how they can. and packing like sardines into the slum because they know they need little room. Most of them can fight, having demonstrated the hard way that just because goblins are small and relatively weak they aren't prey, and a lot of them make their living with low paid work that doesn't require brute strength, often as messengers where their ability to slip through gaps can give them an edge, or house servants who are light on their feet because they don't weigh much and who can be quite literally overlooked by employers who would think it gauche to acknowledge a servant. More highly paid goblins include craftsmen, tinkers, entertainers, and vets (although few of other races will willingly go to goblins for medical care). Famous goblins within the community include []

The goblins within Buldgutz greenskin horde are...

All of which says a lot about goblins and how they are seen within the world and provides far more hooks than the dull 2e Monstrous Manual without saying that that's the only way to do things.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I will add my voice to the ones wanting 4e monster innovations back in 5e. Neat things that are not difficult for a DM to run but add a lot to the feel of a combat.

Monster roles.
Brutes with high damage, high hp, and low AC that you hit all the time but it takes a lot to take down and they hit hard. Skirmishers who are mobile but not very high AC. Lurkers who pop up for a lot but are kind of glass cannons if you can tag them. and so on.

Monster Types
Minions who are one shots, regular monsters, elites who do twice the attacks and take twice as much to take down, solos who do area effects and have X[party number] hp and some interrupt type action.

Monster Themes
Most monsters have a theme mechanic that goes with them so all gnolls get pack attack or whatever regardless of their other individual powers and you know and feel you are dealing with a gnoll regardless of whether you use a gnoll scout or shaman or even if you reskin mostly use the other stats for an orc berserker.

Monster Powers
Forced movement, movement variations, Conditions, Conditions until save, auras, sacrifice minions, bloodied powers. 4e had a lot of mechanically and tactically interesting monster powers while most 5e D&D ones are just hit, hit with effect, or spell.

It was easy to back engineer these 4e mechanics into 3e and Pathfinder, it can easily be done for an advanced 5e.

To be fair, you can just gut the numbers out of the 4e monsters, and replace them with numbers from a set of charts to use 5e bounded accuracy numbers. The biggest workload is compiling the tables for figuring out the numbers for attack, damage, HP, defenses, and proficiency bonuses by CR, and typing up a 5e style statblock from there.

The powers are trivially easy to translate, with rare exceptions. We know what "slowed" means. We know how to translate "save ends".

 

[Bacon Bits]

I don't want more complicated monsters. I want monsters with more fun, tactical abilties. I want more 4e monsters. That was the amazing part of 4e: the monsters! I want action-oriented monsters:


I don't want more complicated monsters. In fact, I want monsters without freaking Spellcasting blocks. Spellcasting blocks suck as a DM. The spell selection is always garbage. There's always spells that do nothing, spells that are extremely complex, and spells that don't suit the NPC at all. It's frustrating and dumb. Give me spellcasters with 3-5 "spell" abilities and that's it. That's all I want.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't want more complicated monsters. In fact, I want monsters without freaking Spellcasting blocks. Spellcasting blocks suck as a DM. The spell selection is always garbage. There's always spells that do nothing, spells that are extremely complex, and spells that don't suit the NPC at all. It's frustrating and dumb. Give me spellcasters with 3-5 "spell" abilities and that's it. That's all I want.

I'll second this but for different reasons. When I DM my players like to improvise and to leave the beaten path - and I wouldn't have it any other way. Which leads to a lot of me improvising what's going on on the fly - I mean I know roughly what's there but not the way the PCs will go at it or even where they will be. But there's no way I can prepare for all possibilities in a reasonable amount of time.

This means that I need statblocks I can turn to, skim through, and be ready to use right there at the table. Any NPCs with text that is a rules reference other than for the basic standard rules and conditions is necessarily incomplete. I need to not only look at that NPC's statblock to work out how it works, but to look at everything it references, whether feats or spells, and figure those out. I can read a complete monster statblock literally right there at the table and still use it competently - but I can only do so of the statblock is complete. If I also need to flip to four feats or four spells (assuming I know two already) I can't improvise that NPC at the table.

Sure I can prepare it as a BBEG for a set-piece fight. But I can't use it for improvisation. I'm also unlikely to use it for a set-piece bad guy because for the huge stuff I homebrew anyway, and for the mid-sized stuff my players can go in weird directions so I'll need them at a time I never expected to and not have prepared for that session. What this means in practice is that I find that monsters with spellblocks either have a tiny handful of cookie-cutter spells or I find them unusable in practice because I can't use them for improv and I can do better for my own set pieces.

This doesn't mean that everyone has to DM the way I do. You can spend hours prepping possibilities - far longer than you do playing the game. You can call for breaks when the players improvise. Or you can run linear railroads. But incomplete statblocks make relatively free-flowing improvised DMing much much harder than it needs to be with, so far as I can tell, no benefit.

 

[Franimus]

I'll second what Neonchameleon said! Please please do not make general monsters more complex - the existing ones are bad enough for me as a DM! Common abilities such as "Pack Tactics" are fine because I can remember the key word easily, so maybe defining up front a list of key words like that which can be applied to various monsters?

 

[Garthanos]

I don't want more complicated monsters. I want monsters with more fun, tactical abilties. I want more 4e monsters. That was the amazing part of 4e: the monsters! I want action-oriented monsters:


I don't want more complicated monsters. In fact, I want monsters without freaking Spellcasting blocks. Spellcasting blocks suck as a DM. The spell selection is always garbage. There's always spells that do nothing, spells that are extremely complex, and spells that don't suit the NPC at all. It's frustrating and dumb. Give me spellcasters with 3-5 "spell" abilities and that's it. That's all I want.

I didnt even think someone was suggesting more complicated than 4e just more complex than 5e.

 

[Stalker0]

I didnt even think someone was suggesting more complicated than 4e just more complex than 5e.

Also there is an absolute time and place for simple monsters (i want my kobolds and my goblins and easy). Hell I want minions back for Even more simplicity.

but a lot or bigger monsters, especially once designed to be somewhat solo, could really benefit from more interesting abilities.

 

[Garthanos]

Also there is an absolute time and place for simple monsters (i want my kobolds and my goblins and easy). Hell I want minions back for Even more simplicity.

Sure on minions. But I also want swarms for the step on up teams of minions Hell I want more of those than 4e had. They had angry mobs and hordes of demons and packs of hyenas and others but really just not enough

 

[Imaculata]

One of the big positives of 5E, is the simplicity of running the monsters, and the introduction of legendary actions and lair actions. I think if we are going to improve combat, the solution is not so much adding complexity, but adding variety and options.

I think the core question that should be addressed here, is why is the combat dull?

I've seen a few people say that there is not a whole lot of movement. You get into a melee, and you beat on the monster till it is dead. There is very little that forces (or encourages) you to change position. Wolves are a very simple example. All they do is run up to you and bite. Adding extra abilities (or modifications of existing abilities), or adding variations of existing monsters, could solve this issue.

Others have said that there's not a whole lot of encouragement to try something different. Once you start fighting, you repeat the same action round after round. I think this also ties into the issue of boring monster abilities. If the monsters keep doing the same thing over and over, without forcing a different action, nothing needs to change about the player strategy till the monsters are dead. Any injuries are easily healed, so tank and spank is the go to strategy.

I like the modular approach to design. Something that players can choose to add to existing monsters and their abilities, to make the fights more interesting. And I lean strongly towards the following:

-Monster formations: Templates for varieties of monsters (even wolves), that each specialize in something different. Players would be able to instantly add these templates to any group of monsters, to spice things up.

-New monster abilities: Abilities that force movement, or other combat actions. Or abilities that disable certain actions on a player. At the risk of making the running of monsters slightly more complex.

-Modifications to existing monster abilities: Also at the risk of making the running of monsters slightly more complex.


So here are some things I've come up with. A list of abilities/qualities that can be added to select monsters in a group, to make several of them have a unique role. For example, you could have one wolf with the meatshield ability, while another has acrobatic leap and chain attack or disperse. This would allow you to make a wolf leap in the middle of the party, and scatter them all. You could also have an alpha wolf with the leadership ability.

Movement related abilities:
These are abilities that allow the creature to more easily reach behind the front line.

Acrobatic Leap: As part of its movement, the creature can vault from any nearby wall, object or ally to jump into the fray. If it lands on an occupied square, that creature is pushed 5 ft. out of the square. With this ability the creature can also run across a wall as part of its movement.

Evasive roll: As part of its movement, the creature can move through an area occupied by an opponent, without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Forced movement abilities:
These are abilities that force the players to move.

Leap attack: If the creature leaps as part of its attack (provided it isn't already in close combat with the target), it automatically pushes the target 5 ft. back.

Disperse: The creature takes an intimidating action that forces all hostile creatures within 15 ft to dash 5 ft. away from it, and interrupting any concentration spells. Affected creatures can make a wisdom saving throw, equal to the creature's highest ability, to resist the effect.

Persistent breath weapon: If the creature uses a breath weapon, it can continue to breath it for as long as it chooses to, as long as it doesn't move from its position. It is however allowed to turn around and readjust its aim.

Lingering breath weapon: The breath weapon of the creature leaves a lingering effect that deals half the normal damage of the breath weapon. Fire breath leaves all the floor tiles (and water) that it hit on fire. Acid leaves puddles of acid, etc. These effects remain for the duration of the fight, unless removed.

Debilitating abilities
These are abilities that hinder the players.

Disarming bite: If the creature hits with a grapple-bite attack and gets a hold, it can immediately attempt to disarm its opponent with a strength check, and take the weapon for itself with its mouth.

Dust kick: If the creature starts or ends its movement near an opponent, it can kick up dust to blind the opponent. They must make a constitution save or be blinded for 1 round.

Cursed bite: When this creature hits with a bite attack, the target must save versus a curse.

Infectious bite: When this creature hits with a bite attack, the target must save versus poison.

Bleeding attack: When this creature hits with an attack, the target must save versus bleeding.

Tactics related abilities
These are abilities that encourage the players to change tactics.

Chain attack: If the creature hits with any of its attacks, it is allowed to make a free attack against another opponent within reach, that has not been attacked by it yet during this round.

Interlocking shields: If a group of creatures with shields forms a shield wall (by standing adjacent to one another), all attacks made against them are made at a disadvantage. Further more, all of them have the benefit of sharing the highest AC of any single member of their group.

Strength in numbers: As long as a group of creatures outnumbers their opponents, they enjoy the benefit of advantage on attacks and saves.

Leadership: As long as this creature is alive, he commands a group of minions who all get advantage on attacks and saves for as long as their commander is alive and within sight.

Spellshield: A group of spellcasting creatures can spend their turn (and each turn there after) blocking any and all spells against their allies. This ability manifests as a visible magical barrier in front of the group. If the concentration of any of the spellcasters is disrupted, the barrier is dropped. The barrier blocks only spells, not normal weapons or magically enhanced/enchanted weapons.

Spotter: As long as this creature is alive and able to speak, it can warn any allies within earshot, and make them immune to flanking.

Opportunist: If an opponent moves out of combat with this creature, it always gets to attack as a reaction. This negates the affect of the disengage action.

Necromantic touch: This opponent can touch one deceased ally on its turn as a full round action, to revive them as an undead. The undead ally retains all its normal abilities, but it is fully healed and now of the undead subtype.

Final strike: If the opponent dies, it gets one final attack against all creatures within reach. If the creature has a breath weapon, it may explode as its final attack, dealing the damage of its breath weapon to all creatures within range.

Clever girl: If the creature is attacking an opponent that is being flanked by an ally, they both attack with advantage.
(It can also open and close doors as part of its movement )

Boosting abilities
These are abilities that elevate the creature to the level of a boss or mini boss, by making them tougher to kill.

Meatshield: The creature has double its normal hitpoints and advantage on all saves.

Blooddrinker: This creature drains blood with bite attacks. Any damage this creature deals with bite attacks, it also converts to healing for itself.

Elemental shield: At will as a supernatural ability, the creature can activate or deactive an elemental shield that affects all other creatures who touch it.

Final form: When the creature is below half its maximum hitpoints, it transforms into another creature and heals back to full health. An animal could for example transform into a dire version of its type. Or a humanoid could transform into some undead or demon.

 

[Helldritch]

A lot of good ideas in here. But a lot of maneuvers can be done already as per the PHB's rules. Push, grab, knock down. It does not need to be in the stat block to be used by the monsters. Before SKT, my giants already loved to grab a PC and throw it as far as the eye could see. Dragons were willing to grab whomever was the most annoying, and pin the unfortunate under a claw, causing claw damage each round as per the grab rules. Goblins and kobolds using the help action to knock down a fighter (or simply push 5 feet away to break formation) to give their allies a better chance to hit.

What I really want to see is better spell selection when applicable. I know I do this already. I want to see special abilities with harder DC. A wight is now a joke compared to what it was. It should have had a better chance to hit and the DC of drain life should have been harder.

Spell like abilities should always be usable with a bonus action or an action.

Classed creatures should have the basic powers that their respective classes have. Why don't veterans have second wind or action surge? A lot of the classed creatures are simply gimped for no good reasons.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go back to 3.5ed monsters' style but a bit more on the 5ed stat blocks would not hurt either.