Do you want updated core books?

[cmbarona]

Actually, Zaran's DM is tired of the errata being used to fix fundamental problems in the game, and to tweak the rules of the game. He has decided that having to have a printout of the errata that is bigger than the PHB is not worth the effort, and will do any fixes by house rule instead of wasting paper on the errata every couple months.

Also, even tho I put yes in the poll, it isnt really true. 4e needs a 4.5e pretty bad now. Just look at the differences between the PHB1 and PHB2, just look at the universal distain for daily magic items, just look at the differences between MM1, MM2 and MM3.

I am not going to play the game where we have to keep track of many small changes through the CB just to play this season's version of the game.

To be frank, you're exaggerating in an unhelpful way. The updates are not bigger than the PHB by any stretch of the imagination. You are not required to read every inch of them in order to use them effectively, either, just as you are not required to read every single power. It's easy to copy and paste the updates in a new document and format them into a more consolidated version. It's easy to simply mark the updated material and cross-reference it with a consolidated printout, or even non-consolidated, since WotC also releases pdfs of up-to-date, whole-book errata. It's easy to spot the essential updates by sheer virtue of where they are and what the headings are. If you don't want to use them, that's your prerogative. For some people's games, they aren't really worth the effort, and I don't know enough about your game to advise you. The books do work as published with only a few notable hiccups. But please don't substitute hyperbole for logical arguments.

 

[cmbarona]

Also, I voted no in the polls. I don't see an end to updates any time soon, and they haven't been too difficult to keep track of. I usually just flag the updates while skimming them for the ones I want to bother reading.

 

[Jhaelen]

I voted no. I don't buy new books unless they're for a noticably different edition, i.e. 5e.

In the past I skipped buying the 2e and 3.5 updates of the rule books, since they were too similar to the previous ones, imho.

For 2e I continued using the 1e books with a bunch of handwritten notes for the important changes and in 3.5 I used the 3.0 books with excerpts from the updated SRD.

Now, I'm happy to continue using my 4e books with the Rules Updates.

 

[eamon]

Given the current rate of errata, buying updated core books seems kind of pointless to me. Even more so because I pay for DDI every month, which I use for more or less every rules-related issue in the book. So, no, I would not pay for updated books.

Unfortunately, quite a few updates are never represented in the CB; or at least you're very unlikely to find them there. All the basic updates (like stacking auras+zones, limits to free action attacks, stealth+acrobatics+athletics+bluff+endurance+insight+perception+thievery changes, dominate+restrained rephrasings, the revamp of skill challenges, the rewritten arial combat rules, rewritten mounted combat rules, vertical teleports, inclined pushes/pulls, marking+unconsciousness, rewritten aid another, resistance+vulnerability changes for combined damage types, thp nonstacking even from distinct sources, changes to the reliable keyword, conjuration changes, etc.) - of which there are quite a few - are not included in or unlikely to be discovered with the character builder.

Actually, Zaran's DM is tired of the errata being used to fix fundamental problems in the game, and to tweak the rules of the game. He has decided that having to have a printout of the errata that is bigger than the PHB is not worth the effort, and will do any fixes by house rule instead of wasting paper on the errata every couple months.

Also, even tho I put yes in the poll, it isnt really true. 4e needs a 4.5e pretty bad now. Just look at the differences between the PHB1 and PHB2, just look at the universal distain for daily magic items, just look at the differences between MM1, MM2 and MM3.

I am not going to play the game where we have to keep track of many small changes through the CB just to play this season's version of the game.

I think you could easily get away with only looking once or twice a year. Unfortuntately, there's no easy way to find out what's changed in that time - the update page only includes the overal summary and the last changes.

In any case, Wizards should really avoid updating basic rules willy nilly as they do now. At least power updates are easy to find in the character builder, but the basics are really a pain. I've started a thread in the 4e errata board arguing that the last particularly bad such change (concerning free action attacks) should be rolled back. It could be replaced by power-only updates and it's vague and more complicated than the original amongst other downsides.

The 4e errata have gotten completely out of hand. I'm pretty sure there's nobody in any group I play in that's really up to date anymore.

 

[Festivus]

Just looking at the complete errata document, all 115 pages (way shorter than the PHB by the way, and that is for ALL books), I find that there are about 5 pages that relate to the PHB core rules being affected (10 if you cound the DMG changes and the Skill challenge rules), fully half a page just for stealth. Most of the errata is for powers, monsters, and magic items... none of which matter to the core ruleset.

People who complain about the errata and the vast amounts of it might be forgetting how broken 3.5 was after you added in many of the books (I am looking at you spell compendium and book of 9 swords). The fact that there is errata means that there is attention being paid to it, and I for one think it's a good thing.

If your group elects to ignore the errata, you should probably choose to ignore the add on books, because unless you adjust the core rules, the power creep on the player side will become unbalanced. The original game, with no errata works well.

 

[eamon]

To be frank, you're exaggerating in an unhelpful way. The updates are not bigger than the PHB by any stretch of the imagination. You are not required to read every inch of them in order to use them effectively, either, just as you are not required to read every single power. It's easy to copy and paste the updates in a new document and format them into a more consolidated version. It's easy to simply mark the updated material and cross-reference it with a consolidated printout, or even non-consolidated, since WotC also releases pdfs of up-to-date, whole-book errata.

There are 115 pages of errata. That's less than half of the PHB. However, it's not as easy to find relevant errata as you make out. For powers it's easy, though not so much if you used multiple books to select from. And of course, the powers have changed quite a bit, so which power you select depends on the errata too; and that means you end up needing to read pretty much all the errata pertaining to your class, and a bit of those pertaining to other options (paragon paths, that sort of thing). All in all, I'd expect at least 15 pages of relevant errata for a normal character, which is a huge amount - more if the character is from diverse sources, fewer at very low levels. About 10 pages of that is pure combat and other general rule updates - not nothing, you know. And the fast rate of update and unreliable book has other downsides too: in 3rd edition, most players in a campaign would know most relevant rules. Many spellcasters would even instantly recognize each other's and the opponents spells; people knew what was going on and didn't need to look things up nor accidentally shoot each other in the foot. Now, that's not the case. People don't bother reading the books except to get a general idea anymore - the character builder supplies the specifics; nobody knows even the basic rules very well back-to-front, and few people know much about each others abilities. People naturally figure out it's not worth knowing too many details since so much changes from year to year and so have stopped investing time figuring out rules except on a need to know basis, which happens during gameplay (slowing things down) or afterward (whoops...).

On the other hand, it's hard to ignore the updates just the same - some updates are quite good and have a lot of impact; it's just hard to wade through it all.

Until "4.5" comes out - whatever that may be - we'll just use the character builder to build all characters and accept the fact that the rules are pretty fuzzy overall - at least in the minds of the players (and DM), which is what matters. If Essentials really turns out to be a cleaner, more stable 4e, that generally only has minor corrective errata, I'll jump on it.

 

[eamon]

Just looking at the complete errata document, all 115 pages (way shorter than the PHB by the way, and that is for ALL books), I find that there are about 5 pages that relate to the PHB core rules being affected (10 if you cound the DMG changes and the Skill challenge rules), fully half a page just for stealth. Most of the errata is for powers, monsters, and magic items... none of which matter to the core ruleset.

10 pages at least partially filled with general info for the PHB alone (i.e. you missed a few which just illustrates the point that it's easy to do so in the jungle of errata). That's not counting pages dealing exclusively with class details, paragon paths, epic destinies, feats, rituals and items even though some of those are fairly general too. The DMG has another 7 pages, of which 3 might be relevant to players.

So on the one hand, that's only 13 pages of general stuff. On the other hand, there's way more including the powers, and it's all interleaved with unmodified rules in the sense that if you want to look up a rule, you pretty much need to look up the errata too.

On the whole, I think the errata are definitely pretty good. But there's also too many of them for it to be convenient, so an updated 4e would be appreciated - one that takes the errata and perhaps fixes a few other problems but keeps the basics intact.

People who complain about the errata and the vast amounts of it might be forgetting how broken 3.5 was after you added in many of the books (I am looking at you spell compendium and book of 9 swords). The fact that there is errata means that there is attention being paid to it, and I for one think it's a good thing.

Different game, different issues.

If your group elects to ignore the errata, you should probably choose to ignore the add on books, because unless you adjust the core rules, the power creep on the player side will become unbalanced. The original game, with no errata works well.

Hmm, I don't think so: quite a lot of stuff in the first printing was broken (in the sense of not making much sense) or rather unbalanced. Actually, I get the impression that the later splatbooks had fewer issues than the original PHB+DMG+MM+AV. Stuff like Righteous Brand + Blade Cascade is pretty nasty.

 

[Shazman]

I think it's pointless to buy any books for 4E. The "rules updates" keep coming at such a rate, that it's not worth even trying to keep up with them. I might buy a copy of the PHB with rules updates, if they would leave it alone, and let the printed rules stand unless their is a misprint or something truly, horribly broken. Unfortunately, since they are still changing the three core rule books over two years after they were released, it's unlikely that they will ever stop the endless nerfing of powers and feats. I don't even agree with most of the rules updates. I would prefer to play without any rules updates, and would love to have a setting on the character builder that would not include any rules updates. At this point, I'm pretty much fed up with WotC. They haven't gotten any money from me in a while, and that is unlikely to change in the forseeable future.

 

[Verision]

I voted yes.

I don't have DDI, so what I'm about to say may already be covered, but just in case:

What I would really like to see is a digital version of all of the books that gets updated whenever new errata comes out. You buy the digital version ONCE and you get a pdf that automatically updates with all the errata.

Heck, make it a website. You log into the website and buy a pdf version of any book. Whenever new errata is created, you get an email saying that the updated version of the book is available. You log back into the website and download the new version of the book.

My biggest problem with all the errata is that my books are obsolete. When the first round of errata came around, I printed it all off, cut it out, and taped it into the books. When the second round came out, I said "F this" and decided that I'd play "as is" and just make house rules to fix anything that I thought needed fixing.

If I could get a version of the book that is up to date with all the errata, even if it was digital only (or you had to print it off yourself if you wanted a new hard copy) then I would be much happier about the errata. I mean, I like them fixing problems with the games, but making my book obsolete in the process sucks.

(If that is what is already done with DDI, then maybe I should get myself a subscription...)

 

[Mengu]

I voted no.

As a matter of fact, I would prefer if down the road 5e was solely supported online through tools like character builder, rules compendium, monster builder, and encounter builder.

As an adult, paying a couple hundred bucks a year to play D&D with the most updated rules is more than a fair price for me. Save the paper.

I do think they may need to figure out a way to do a discounted student subscription price with this approach though.