Dodging arrows

[Saeviomagy]

Why shouldn't monsters have higher reflex saves than armor? 3e rogues usually did.

 

[Ahglock]

On the other hand, you get the absurdity that some things are easier to hit and hurt then they are to touch if you don't have AC scale with reflex defense.

This makes me think it should be an error, but then again some things in 4e seem to emphasize rule balance or mechanics over avoiding absurdity. Don't know if this is one of the cases or not but I could see a none absurd side of it as a sort of magic resistance, a + to all saves but not AC could represent that fairly well though they might have to say but not vs grappling and non spell touch attacks or something.

 

[Ahglock]

Why shouldn't monsters have higher reflex saves than armor? 3e rogues usually did.

Because they might represent different things now. Reflex saves in 4e also seem to represent touch ACs, though I could be misinterpreting the info revealed so far. And in 3e I don't think there is a rogue out there with a better touch AC than AC, in fact I do not think it is possible.

 

[Minigiant]

AC is threat
Reflex is contact

An attack vs AC is to see it your attack had a chance to hit a vulnerable area
An attack vs Ref is to see if your attack touch the target

Most of the time it's easier to touch someone than then to bypass their defenses. But sone characters have a large area of vulnerability. It may be easier to swing inches from flesh and force a parry than to actually hit that dodgy rogue.

 

[Obscure]

I noticed something weird -- some monsters have a Reflex higher than their AC. How does that work? How can it be easier to evade a beam of magical power than to dodge an arrow?

I mean, maybe it's not that big a deal, but -- do you think that's intentional, or an oversight, or even just a typo?

I've only seen this with two monsters: the immolith and kobold slinger. Have you seen any others with Ref higher than AC?

If it's only these two, I think chances are pretty high that they're just stat block errors. WotC has been known to make one or two of those.

 

[loseth]

The other, more common acceptance, ime, is the acknowledgement that the only hit that does real damage is the one that drops you.

I like:

*Most blows either a) miss you or b) hit you with so little force as to be inconsequential.
*The blow that bloodies you hits you and hurts you, but not enough to degrade your combat effectiveness.
*The blow that knocks you below 0 HP really hurts you, maybe enough to kill you.

Now, after 0 HP, things get a little odd in 4e, IMHO, with the possibility to pop back up and rejoin the fight as if nothing had happened, but up until then it works really well for me.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I've only seen this with two monsters: the immolith and kobold slinger. Have you seen any others with Ref higher than AC?

If it's only these two, I think chances are pretty high that they're just stat block errors. WotC has been known to make one or two of those.

No, I don't think they are errors. They might be, but I think it's not unlikely that the different monster roles emphasise Reflex and AC differently. Artillery monsters might have a higher Reflex Save based on the idea of them needing to evade magical ranged attacks more often, while a low AC means that they are (intentionally) weaker and more vulnerable in close combat. This emphasizes the difference on how they fight and how you fight them.

Reflex Defense sometimes acts similar to touch AC in 3E, but it is not entirely the same concept.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I like:

*Most blows either a) miss you or b) hit you with so little force as to be inconsequential.
*The blow that bloodies you hits you and hurts you, but not enough to degrade your combat effectiveness.
*The blow that knocks you below 0 HP really hurts you, maybe enough to kill you.

Now, after 0 HP, things get a little odd in 4e, IMHO, with the possibility to pop back up and rejoin the fight as if nothing had happened, but up until then it works really well for me.

The "metal" or "WWCD*" interpretation is: You soldier on, despite grevious wounds.
The "emo" or WWRD**" interpretation is: It only looked or sounded like a bad wound (be sure to avoid guts-hanging out).
Feel free to mix & match, according to preference, situation or alignment of stars.

*) what would Conan do?
**) What would Rincewind do?

 

[Fallen Seraph]

This is my view on the whole Health issue, from another thread:

HP = Your fighting capacity, and ability to be physically able to fight and survive a conflict. Thus why there is bloodied mechanics to show when ability to fight has grown limited and finally when you become incapacitated and when in this state of near death, the prospect of death is more real, because this final major incapacitation can potentially cause life-threatening injuries.

Healing Surges = Your actual health, this represents how well your body, mind and the level of physical capabilities you are able to endure and press onward with. The more healing surges you use, showcases you placing extra stress on your body to push on and work at fuller capacities, as well as make minor injuries patched up.

As you use up your Healing Surges it means it is harder too reach your full fighting potential because your injuries and sheer stress on your body has begun to build up. When all your Healing Surges are gone, this is when you have reached the end of the line and your body is suffering too much to continue working at full capacity.

So in the case of coming back from below 0, that is you using forcing yourself to get back in the fight, maybe patching yourself up a little. But it is not necessarily a killing blow, since by being below 0 HP simply means your incapacitated with the chance of a killing blow from how weakened your body has become.

 

[Stogoe]

Now, after 0 HP, things get a little odd in 4e, IMHO, with the possibility to pop back up and rejoin the fight as if nothing had happened, but up until then it works really well for me.

I like to think of it as 'it looks really bad, but you can't be sure until you get over there and take a look (i.e, Heal check)'.