Dodging arrows

[Moon-Lancer]

I believe ray-like spells are as slow as Star Trek phaser, so you can just step slightly to the side.

I jest.

Does that mean that the finger of the wizard must remain perfectly still and cannot rake the beam because of compositing issues and effects done in post?

 

[Surgoshan]

The "metal" or "WWCD*" interpretation is: You soldier on, despite grevious wounds.
The "emo" or WWRD**" interpretation is: It only looked or sounded like a bad wound (be sure to avoid guts-hanging out).
Feel free to mix & match, according to preference, situation or alignment of stars.

*) what would Conan do?
**) What would Rincewind do?

Rincewind is not emo!

*killing you with mind*

 

[Larrin]

the reason that Ref can be higher than AC is that different types of things attack ref than AC, meaning that the same tactics you'd use to avoid a fiery burst or a 'precise strike' are as applicable to an arrow streaking for your head, or 20lbs of steel swinging at your neck. You might avoid a fireball by covering you face or tuning your body to avoid the brunt of it, or bat away a 'precision' dagger with a reflexive swat of the hand, but these won't stop an arrow or longsword from hitting you, you just take it in the back or the arm. Think of them as two different defences of fending of two differenct types of attack, and for a really nimble person, they can avoid taking the worst of ref attacks via methods that don't work nearly as well against ac type attacks.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Was just thinking about this, perhaps it is simply... AC isn't a defence against magical attacks, so either you are hit or your not (thus Reflex), with arrows there is a chance your armour/ability to defend yourself will stop the arrow from doing damage (thus AC).

It isn't what your most likely to do to try and defend yourself, but simply the more likely defence that will have a chance of defending you.

 

[That One Guy]

Was just thinking about this, perhaps it is simply... AC isn't a defence against magical attacks, so either you are hit or your not (thus Reflex), with arrows there is a chance your armour/ability to defend yourself will stop the arrow from doing damage (thus AC).

It isn't what your most likely to do to try and defend yourself, but simply the more likely defence that will have a chance of defending you.

Agreed. Reflex defense seems to be totally avoiding an attack while AC is armour and one's ability to defend oneself. So, why can't one arrow dodge? Besides game mechanics (which is an argument that would satisfy me)?

I ran through this train of thought... a person completely dodges a spell. If it had touched them at all, they'd get zapped/frozen/fried/etc. Regardless of armour. Now, if an arrow came at them... they could try and parry/shift their body. I think that would be the dex mod taken into account. Or the arrow could fall harmlessly off of their armour/shield. Yadda ya. So, what if a kobold is better at getting out of the way of things (that if they touch him will hurt him ) than he is at using his armour and small body adjustments to dodge an arrow?

I can understand how that could seem flawed to someone (while it totally works for me), so there are two solutions. The previously given roll twice, first versus reflex, and then versus AC. Or you could just make all ranged attacks (including arrows) versus reflex.

 

[Keenath]

The previously given roll twice, first versus reflex, and then versus AC. Or you could just make all ranged attacks (including arrows) versus reflex.

One is awkward, the other stupid. It'd be ridiculous to have a system such that a wrapped-in-steel pally is easy to peg with arrows... that's what the armor and shield are FOR.


Honestly, I'm not saying I demand a fix or anything. I just was wondering if anyone else thought that might be a bug or something.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Because they might represent different things now. Reflex saves in 4e also seem to represent touch ACs, though I could be misinterpreting the info revealed so far. And in 3e I don't think there is a rogue out there with a better touch AC than AC, in fact I do not think it is possible.

But my point still stands - reflex in 4e covers the old stuff, plus the new stuff.

Since a 3e rogue's reflex save often beat his ac by a significant margin, while his ac was usually real close to his touch ac, that leaves the average of the two as being above his ac.

Finally - the argument is that because the reflex save is "getting out of the way of stuff" and ac is "not getting hurt by stuff", that the reflex save should always be lower. In 4e, they've decided that getting out of the way of stuff shouldn't have multiple methods of resolution based on whether it's an area or a touch. Rogues were better at avoiding fireballs in 3e than they were at avoiding spitballs. How does that make sense?

 

[Keenath]

Reflex saves in 4e also seem to represent touch ACs, though I could be misinterpreting the info revealed so far. And in 3e I don't think there is a rogue out there with a better touch AC than AC, in fact I do not think it is possible.

Huh? Of course it's possible in 3e. A level 1 rogue with no armor ALWAYS has a better Reflex than AC (which is equal to his touch AC). Well, a better reflex bonus than AC bonus -- AC adds 10, reflex adds d20, but that averages to just about the same thing.

Finally - the argument is that because the reflex save is "getting out of the way of stuff" and ac is "not getting hurt by stuff", that the reflex save should always be lower. In 4e, they've decided that getting out of the way of stuff shouldn't have multiple methods of resolution based on whether it's an area or a touch. Rogues were better at avoiding fireballs in 3e than they were at avoiding spitballs. How does that make sense?

Right, exactly. No big deal, really... it's just weird that a guy can dodge any sort of touch attack, but can't dodge arrows with the same proficiency.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Rincewind is not emo!

Well, you might be right. I just couldn't come up with a better example.

*killing you with mind*

Better be careful with that. It appears as if you already lost a personal pronoun. Magic is not to be trifled with. (That might be the only lesson Rincewind ever learned. *sigh*)

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

In an X-second combat round, the fighter is making, say, 8 actual swings of his weapon. The rogue is lining up one perfect Deft Strike, and the wizard is shooting one magic missile. A high-Reflex enemy might do fine at dodging those singular, aimed attacks, but crowd him in with a flurry and he's got no choice but to start blocking and parrying. That's not the only way to justify it, but it works for me.

Yeah, I think Deft Strike is a good example. I think of that ability as slashing at the enemy's face or armpits or other exposed areas; it makes sense that for some enemies with excellent reflexes, you'd be better off just trying to stab them in the chest rather than hit them somewhere "vulnerable."