Does 3E/3.5 dictate a certain style of play?

[Umbran]

Although it is tempting to to go on and on citing examples of how and why this edition of the game rewards and encourages this sort of behavior I will instead refer you to the "Character Optimization Board" on the WoTC DnD Website to make the case for me.

I don't think the first will prove the point. Such examples exist in any game in which tactics matter, and 1e and 2e are similarly combat oriented. You go ahead and start a list, and the other side of the argument will start a list. And we'll find that list-sizing is not an answer.

And the message boards are so terribly wrong for proving such a point, for two very basic reasons - 1)the people on message boards are not a valid random sampling of gamers for purposes fo displaying trends and 2) message boards of these sorts are newer than the prior editions - so behavior on them is apt to be about the computer technology, rather than the game.

Unless you can make a cogent argument that players of 1e and 2e would never have done such things if they'd have the tech available? I don't think you can.

The rpg is a direct outgrowth of wargaming. Any behavior you expect out of wargamers, you'll see in a goodly chunk of rpg players, and for the same reasons.

 

[Shadeydm]

I don't think the first will prove the point. Such examples exist in any game in which tactics matter, and 1e and 2e are similarly combat oriented. You go ahead and start a list, and the other side of the argument will start a list. And we'll find that list-sizing is not an answer.

And the message boards are so terribly wrong for proving such a point, for two very basic reasons - 1)the people on message boards are not a valid random sampling of gamers for purposes fo displaying trends and 2) message boards of these sorts are newer than the prior editions - so behavior on them is apt to be about the computer technology, rather than the game.

Unless you can make a cogent argument that players of 1e and 2e would never have done such things if they'd have the tech available? I don't think you can.

The rpg is a direct outgrowth of wargaming. Any behavior you expect out of wargamers, you'll see in a goodly chunk of rpg players, and for the same reasons.

I apologize for not clarifying my statement I was not referring to the bad behavior that can be found on those boards but the libraries of 4,6 or even 7 class and Prc builds that can be found there. I do not think this would have been the case if we had eric noah's ADnD news and reviews site or a TSR message board. This is not to say that there couldn't have been an ADnD COB but rather to say that it could never have approached the absurdity of the 3.xE COB.

*Edited to add the last line.

 

[Mark CMG]

The rpg is a direct outgrowth of wargaming. Any behavior you expect out of wargamers, you'll see in a goodly chunk of rpg players, and for the same reasons.

I agree, insofar as any game that has a mechanical component that, by embracing and exploiting it, provides a means to do better within the frame work of the game, that is to say, to be more successful within the game, will engender that behavior in many of its players (though the reasons to do so might not be direct).

 

[Jim Hague]

I apologize for not clarifying my statement I was not referring to the bad behavior that can be found on those boards but the libraries of 4,6 or even 7 class and Prc builds that can be found there. I do not think this would have been the case if we had eric noah's ADnD news and reviews site or a TSR message board. This is not to say that there couldn't have been an ADnD COB but rather to say that it could never have approached the absurdity of the 3.xE COB.

*Edited to add the last line.

And your proof is...?

 

[Shadeydm]

Don't misunderstand me if a players says man I have always loved Ninjas and want to play one, I am totally cool with it. But the notion that a ranger/fighter/barbarian/hulking hurler/order of the bow iniatiate/assasin is somehow reasonable logical or about anything other than number crunching really baffles me.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I think that it is reasonably obvious that, the more choices one has in character generation (and the more those choices are independent of each other), the more types of options one has to create any type of character. It is easier to powergame when choices have actual meaning.

"Powergaming" in 1e consists, at best, of deciding where to put one's stats and buying the best weapons/armor/equipment one can afford. At worst, it is simply cheating on die rolls.

Powergaming in 3e consists of milking race/class/feat/skill/prestige class/magic item combos for as much power as you can get. Unlike 1e, where you didn't pick your magic items (or even your spells, by Crom), in 3e you can make these choices. The ability to make these choices grants, by consequence, the ability to optimize these choices.

Your DM can, of course, limit your choices, and you can limit yourself (as a group or as an individual), but the idea of "Mastery" built into the ruleset presupposes (IMHO) that not limiting yourself is a good thing. You don't have to play this way, but WotC encourages you to play this way. After all, it sells more books.

The easiest test of the "1e would have had the same if the Internet existed then" is that the Internet does exist now, and there are still many people who play earlier editions of the game. There are web sites devoted to 1e, and to OSIRIC, the 1e-like OGL game system. If 1e and 3e were the same in this way, it would seem reasonable to suppose that, if not a plethora, at least some "1e optimization" sites/threads would be out there somewhere.

Try http://www.planetadnd.com/ (the closest thing I know of the EN World for 1e and 2e) and see what you can find.

RC

EDIT: Just to be clear, I prefer options. I'd rather have more options and deal with people who want to powergame than have fewer options and not have to tell someone "no". YMMV.

 

[Shadeydm]

And your proof is...?

Ahh yes the old "I'm rubber your glue" defense this must be the part where I am supposed to shout across the schoolyard "no you prove it" or better yet "my dad can beat up your dad" lol.

 

[Storm Raven]

Ahh yes the old "I'm rubber your glue" defense this must be the part where I am supposed to shout across the schoolyard "no you prove it" or better yet "my dad can beat up your dad" lol.

You are the one making the assertion. It seems to me that you should not be surprised when people expect you to back up your claims with something resembling evidence.

 

[Storm Raven]

I think that it is reasonably obvious that, the more choices one has in character generation (and the more those choices are independent of each other), the more types of options one has to create any type of character. It is easier to powergame when choices have actual meaning.

Well, sort of. The key to the difference bwteen 1e and 3e in this regard is that, in 1e, there were choices that were obviously, and clearly superior to other choices. So the path for a power gamer was clearly lit with big neon lights.

"Powergaming" in 1e consists, at best, of deciding where to put one's stats and buying the best weapons/armor/equipment one can afford. At worst, it is simply cheating on die rolls.

And deciding which flavor of elf you want to play, and deciding if you want to play a cavalier or fighter/magic-user or you want to try one of the other Unearthed Arcana classes.

The easiest test of the "1e would have had the same if the Internet existed then" is that the Internet does exist now, and there are still many people who play earlier editions of the game. There are web sites devoted to 1e, and to OSIRIC, the 1e-like OGL game system. If 1e and 3e were the same in this way, it would seem reasonable to suppose that, if not a plethora, at least some "1e optimization" sites/threads would be out there somewhere.

People who are still playing 1e don't need anyone to show them how to optimize their characters. At this point, anyone who hasn't figured how to do that in 25 or so years of tooling with the system is beyond help in that regard.

 

[Storm Raven]

I apologize for not clarifying my statement I was not referring to the bad behavior that can be found on those boards but the libraries of 4,6 or even 7 class and Prc builds that can be found there.

And? Why exactly are these a problem other than they somehow violate the writ that your class is your label for your career? Classes and PrCs are simply packages of attributes put together in usable form. You seem to make a big deal out of multiple class combinations, but don't really seem to have any rationale for them being bad other than "they are bad, so there!"

I do not think this would have been the case if we had eric noah's ADnD news and reviews site or a TSR message board. This is not to say that there couldn't have been an ADnD COB but rather to say that it could never have approached the absurdity of the 3.xE COB.

Because munchkining in 1e was so much easier to do, you didn't need to work at it.