Does 3E/3.5 dictate a certain style of play?

[Storm Raven]

I ran several long term ADnD adventures and never had any problems with multiclass characters outshining single class in fact things usually worked out quite the opposite.

All this stuff about stats generated by alternate methods are silly you are assuming the use of non standard methods of ability score generation that I can't imagine a DM actually allowing.

Methods officially approved in the official rule books of the day. But the game was well-designed.

All this talk of certain ADnD classes bring more powerful than others please allow me to refer you to the 3.XE Druid and Cleric.

Somehow those classes never outshine the others in actual play.

When the single class wizard learns Fireball and Lighting Bolt the Multiclass is still stuck with 2nd levels spells. When the single class cleric is casting Heal the multiclass might have cure critical wounds. Which would you rather have in your party??

And this is even more true in 3e. Taking a multiclass delays your advancement in things like spell acquisition even more. In 1e, you could have a 5th/5th level fighter/cleric, who would adventure with 6th level single classed characters. In 3e, the same type multiclass character traveling with the 6th level single class characters would be 3rd/3rd level. Which system rewards mutliclassing inordinately again?

Meanwhile the 3.XE rogue can dip a level into barbarian and get an extra 10' movement (great for tumbling spring attacking etc) and the ability to rage. He can dipevels into ranger and get TWF fav enemy, tracking etc. There are many such choices which clearly benefit the3 rogue character refer to the CO board for details. Dipping = rewarded in 3.xE.

And every dipped level in another class puts him further away from getting high level rogue special abilities. If the delay in getting fireball is a big deal, why is waiting more levels to get high level class abilities not? Sure, he gets fast movement, and rage by taking a level of barbarian, but he slows his sneak attack progression, loses 4 skill points, probably has a hard time advancing his rogue class skills (including, for example, tumble), and puts off getting high level rogue selectable special abilties.

The cost for multiclassing in 3e is significant, as opposed to the cost in 1e, which was trivial. Like I said before, if you are going by what you saw on an internet board to determine what works in actual play, then you aren't getting a good idea of how the system works, because it never seems to work out nearly as well as the optimization guys say it does.

 

[Storm Raven]

Over 20 levels those are marginal at best

So, until he is 20th level the character is hampered? But that's not a problem somehow? I think you are falling into the same trap that a lot of people on the optimization board do - "this character is AWESOME: take three levels of this, four levels of that, two levels of somethings else, select the right combination of five feats and cast three spells and he is totally powerful!!!" Sure he is. Once he gets to 12th level or so. Until then, he's lame and the rest of the party wonders why he's even bothering to adventure.

and of course this is a human skill bonuses bonus feat etc.

This makes no sense as written.

Don't forget the bab boosts for those levels.

This statement also makes no sense as written.

 

[Shadeydm]

So, until he is 20th level the character is hampered? But that's not a problem somehow? I think you are falling into the same trap that a lot of people on the optimization board do - "this character is AWESOME: take three levels of this, four levels of that, two levels of somethings else, select the right combination of five feats and cast three spells and he is totally powerful!!!" Sure he is. Once he gets to 12th level or so. Until then, he's lame and the rest of the party wonders why he's even bothering to adventure.



This makes no sense as written.



This statement also makes no sense as written.

Ok allow me to spell it out this character could easily build up 5 levels of rogue dip those three or four levels in other classes and return to rogue through 20 with the benefits far outweighing the drawbacks. 3 cheers for frontloaded class design hip hip horray!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Methods officially approved in the official rule books of the day. But the game was well-designed.

Well, AD&D 1e wasn't designed with the idea that each campaign would follow the same baseline. As a result, DMs were given some options as to how characters were generated. That seems reasonable to me. In fact, you can use alternate methods of assigning attribute scores in every edition of D&D.

Somehow those classes never outshine the others in actual play.

I, for one, am willing to grant that they must have done so for some people, simply on the basis of third-party evidence and my recollection of the Sage Advice column. That said, these problems seem very much to belong to certain groups/DMs.

The cost for multiclassing in 3e is significant, as opposed to the cost in 1e, which was trivial.

This I don't believe. The more front-loaded class abilities are -- and the more class abilities exist -- the more you are going to gain from taking a dip. Not to mention that, in 1e, taking a dip was impossible. If you changed classes, you couldn't go back. If you were multi-classed, you kept paying that XP penalty even if you could no longer gain in one of your classes.



RC

 

[Shadeydm]

and of course this is a human skill bonuses bonus feat etc.



This makes no sense as written.

To clarify for you it was in response to a question about race that this rogue would be human to take advantage of the bonus feat and bonus skill points that choice grants omg more 3E powergaming.

Quote:
Don't forget the bab boosts for those levels.


This statement also makes no sense as written.

This is listing yet another benefit of dipping +1 bab for each level of dip.

 

[Shadeydm]

And the beauty of all this is that while you need to keep refering to UA for your arguement my point has been made using just the 3.xE players handbook. I haven't even opened the powergaming can of worms that is the complete series and PHB2 and all the other spat books out there that are official wotc materials lol.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Over 20 levels those are marginal at best and of course this is a human skill bonuses bonus feat etc. Don't forget the bab boosts for those levels.

"Marginal at best"? Improved Evasion, marginal? Skill Mastery, marginal?

I agree with the other posters here--1e had a few obvious choices to powergame, 3.X makes you work for it. Storm Raven's comment about 1e vs. 3.X multiclassing was what I was going to say.

This I don't believe. The more front-loaded class abilities are -- and the more class abilities exist -- the more you are going to gain from taking a dip. Not to mention that, in 1e, taking a dip was impossible. If you changed classes, you couldn't go back. If you were multi-classed, you kept paying that XP penalty even if you could no longer gain in one of your classes.

RC

In 3e, a level is a level. You don't have separate XP charts. Multiclassing is something you have to think about, to do carefully.

In 1e, you didn't need to "take a dip"--from what other people have said, you could easily match your level in both classes because the XP chart started over.

 

[Storm Raven]

Ok allow me to spell it out this character could easily build up 5 levels of rogue dip those three or four levels in other classes and return to rogue through 20 with the benefits far outweighing the drawbacks. 3 cheers for frontloaded class design hip hip horray!

And he gives up quite a bit by dipping in another class. You don't seem to understand opportunity cost. Dipping four levels of barbarian costs the rogue +2d6 sneak attack, a net of 16 skill points, and two rogue selectable special abilities.

Dipping four levels of barbarian nets the rogue rage twice per day, and fast movement. The barbarian's uncanny dodge ability overlaps the rogue's, and since the rogue is getting 16 levels of rogue, that doesn't benefit him.

The rogue gains no net gain in BAB. He gains a net +3 to his Fort save, but loses a net +1 to his Reflex save. He gains a little durability - gaining on average +12 hit points (raising him from an average of 70 hit points as a 20th level rogue, to 82 as a rogue 16/barbarian 4). In addition, the barbarian skill list doesn't mesh incredibly well with the rogue list, meaning he will either have a couple skills permanently at relatively low levels (driven by his barbarian selections) or buy some rogue skills at double cost with his barbarian skill points, or have to navigate what skills appear on both lists. In any event, he is less skillful than the straight rogue.

How is this a powergaming tradeoff? How is this particularly beneficial to the rogue? What he gains is at best as valuable as he gives up, and probably less valuable. "Dipping" is likely a net loss for the rogue.

I think your "powergaming" claim has pretty much been nullified as the hookum that it actually is.

 

[Storm Raven]

To clarify for you it was in response to a question about race that this rogue would be human to take advantage of the bonus feat and bonus skill points that choice grants omg more 3E powergaming.

Humans gain those abilities to balance them with other classes. Where a human gets a bonus feat, elves, dwarves, et al get a host of other bonuses. I don't think you really understand any of what you are talking about here.

This is listing yet another benefit of dipping +1 bab for each level of dip.

Only if the class is a full BAB class. Otherwise, you only get +0 BAB for that first level. And whether you actually net +1 BAB is an open question. A rogue who "dips" four levels of barbarian or ranger nets a total of +0 BAB for his dip over the course of his career. This is yet another sign of your actual unfamiliarity with the system.

 

[Storm Raven]

And the beauty of all this is that while you need to keep refering to UA for your arguement my point has been made using just the 3.xE players handbook.

You haven't even come close to "making your point". You keep talking about how you "dip this" and "dip that", and yet, when you evaluate what happens if a character actually did make the choices you talk about, the "dipping" character always seems to give up at least as much as he gets. Your unfamiliarity with the system keeps tripping you up when you make your grand pronouncements about how 3e works.