Does 3E/3.5 dictate a certain style of play?

[Raven Crowking]

In 3e, a level is a level. You don't have separate XP charts. Multiclassing is something you have to think about, to do carefully.

If I am a wizard, and I take a 1-level dip into fighter, what do I get for it?

What do I lose?

Now, same question, except that I have either wizard or fighter as my favored class.

One of the reasons that WotC seems to be considering having an easter egg at every level for every class is probably, IMHO, that dipping is a no-brainer, obvious way of improving certain characters. It is certainly a better option than multiclassing in 1e.

OTOH, this may again be due to the relative skills and merits of different player groups. No one I personally know has to "think about" or "do carefully" multiclassing in 3e to make it effective.


RC

 

[Storm Raven]

This I don't believe. The more front-loaded class abilities are -- and the more class abilities exist -- the more you are going to gain from taking a dip. Not to mention that, in 1e, taking a dip was impossible. If you changed classes, you couldn't go back. If you were multi-classed, you kept paying that XP penalty even if you could no longer gain in one of your classes.

The problem with people who say "take a dip in this class" or "take a dip in that class" is that they almost never understand opportunity cost. Sure, you get some low-level class abiltiies from some other class, but it always means losing out on high level class abiltiies somewhere else. Dipping can be fun, but it is not really a very good path to power, because you have to give stuff up to do it. As I pointed out already in this thread, for a rogue (for example) dipping, for example, four levels of barbarian (or, similarly four levels of ranger) works out at best as a net wash for the rogue in terms of power. Dipping one level of barbarian works out as a net wash.

For all the ballyhoo about "dipping", it is not a particularly rewarding strategy in 3e when you actually evaluate the costs.

 

[Shadeydm]

You haven't even come close to "making your point". You keep talking about how you "dip this" and "dip that", and yet, when you evaluate what happens if a character actually did make the choices you talk about, the "dipping" character always seems to give up at least as much as he gets. Your unfamiliarity with the system keeps tripping you up when you make your grand pronouncements about how 3e works.

I never said anything about taking 4 levels of barbarian but feel free to fabricate where ever you need to try and make your point.Take for instance a human rogue with 16 rogue levels 2 ranger levels 1 barbarian level and a level of fighter for good measure considering the PHB only is superior to a straight 20 level rogue again using the PHB only. If you really want see the power creep of all the splat books, complete books etc. ask someone else as its a style of play I refuse to embrace. a one level dip into barbarian is pretty good as is two levels of ranger etc. 10' movement, fav enemy, tracking, rage, TWF, fighter bonus feat, 4 pts of bab a better fort save etc etc etc.

 

[Storm Raven]

If I am a wizard, and I take a 1-level dip into fighter, what do I get for it?

What do I lose?

Let's see what the end result is:

The Wizard 20 has caster level 20, 20d4 hit dice (average 50 hit points), +10 BAB, +6/+6/+12 on his saves, four wizard bonus feats, can cast 4 spells per day of every level. He has wizard weapon proficiencies, and no armor proficiencies.

The Wizard 20/Fighter 1 has caster level 19 19d4+1d10 hit dice (average 53 hit points), +10 BAB, +8/+6/+11 on his saves, three wizard bonus feats, one fighter bonus feat, can cast 4 spells per day of levels 0 through 7, and 3 spells per day of level 8 and 9. He has martial and simple weapon proficiencies, and all armor and shield proficiencies.

So, the "dipped" wizard" gains: simple and martial weapon proficiencies, armor and shield proficiencies, +2 Fortitude saves, 3 hit points, and one fighter bonus feat.

He loses +1 Will save, +1 caster level, one wizard bonus feat, and the ability to cast 1 8th and 1 9th level spell per day.

Doesn't look at all obvious who got the better deal. I know I would rather be able to cast more 8th and 9th level spells though. That's certainly better (in my opinion) than being able to use a longsword at +10 BAB when you are 20th level. In my opinion, the "dip" character is less effective than the non dip character.

 

[Storm Raven]

I never said anything about taking 4 levels of barbarian but feel free to fabricate where ever you need to try and make your point.Take for instance a human rogue with 16 rogue levels 2 ranger levels 1 barbarian level and a level of fighter for good measure considering the PHB only is superior to a straight 20 level rogue again using the PHB only. If you really want see the power creep of all the splat books, complete books etc. ask someone else as its a style of play I refuse to embrace. a one level dip into barbarian is pretty good as is two levels of ranger etc. 10' movement, fav enemy, tracking, rage, TWF, fighter bonus feat, 4 pts of bab a better fort save etc etc etc.

Okay, let's look at your "dip" character compared to a straight rogue.

There is no BAB advantage, despite your constant bleating on that score. A barbarian 1/ranger 2/fighter 1/rogue 16 has a +15 BAB, just like a rogue 20. So let's go over the salient points (everything I don't bring up is the same between the two characters):

The straight rogue 20 has 20d6 hit dice (average 70 hit points), +15 BAB, +6/+12/+6 BAB, 184 skill points, +10d6 sneak attack, trap sense +6, and four rogue special abilities.

The rogue 16/ranger 2/barbarian 1/fighter 1 has 16d6+2d8+1d10+1d12 hit dice (average 77 hit points), +15 BAB, +11/+11/+5 save, 170 skill points, trap sense +5, two rogue special abilities, +8d6 sneak attack, Track (not particularly useful, since he cannot drive his Survivial skill high enough to track things at high level), Two-Weapon Fighting, rage once per day, fast movement, one favored enemy, wild empathy +1, and a fighter bonus feat. He gains medium and heavy armor proficiencies (useless to him), and martial weapon proficiencies.

So, the dipper gains +7 hit points, +5 Fortitude save, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, martial weapon proficiencies, useless armor proficiencies, rage once per day, fast movement, a fighter bonus feat, wild empathy +1, and a favored enemy.

He gives up 14 skill points, +1 Reflex and +1 Will saves, +1 trap sense, two rogue special abilities, and +2d6 sneak attack.

Once again, when you actually evaluate what the "dipper" gets, it works out to pretty much a net wash. Especially when you consider that the rogue special abilities are, in general, more valuable than any ability he gets by dipping. Opportunity cost. Learn what it is, and what ignoring it does to your arguments.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

There is no BAB advantage, despite your constant bleating on that score. A barbarian 1/ranger 2/fighter 1/rogue 16 has a +15 BAB, just like a rogue 20. So let's go over the salient points (everything I don't bring up is the same between the two characters):

Just to clarify, the Rog 16 / Full BAB 4 multiclass has a +1 BAB advantage over the Rog 20.

For every 4 levels of medium BAB class you take, you lose 1 BAB vs. the full BAB progression.

Rog 16: +12 BAB
Full BAB 4: +4 BAB
-----------------
+16 BAB

Rog 20: +15 BAB

 

[Raven Crowking]

Okay, Storm Raven, if you assume that you will make it to 20th level with any character, and that you have no advantage in gaining XP, survivability, gaining treasure, etc., by being more powerful sooner, then I can except that eventually things will balance out.

However, if you break it down level-by-level, the 1-level dip into fighter pays well now with no clear loss later which is, by any rational standard, a good deal.


RC

 

[Storm Raven]

Just to clarify, the Rog 16 / Full BAB 4 multiclass has a +1 BAB advantage over the Rog 20.

Sorry about that: math error. Too much number crunching on the fly. I'm pretty sure I got the rest of the numbers right though. Feel free to check.

 

[Storm Raven]

Okay, Storm Raven, if you assume that you will make it to 20th level with any character, and that you have no advantage in gaining XP, survivability, gaining treasure, etc., by being more powerful sooner, then I can except that eventually things will balance out.

Except that's not what anyone is claiming. Dipping hampers you right now by putting off abilities that you would otherwise get. It was ther "pro-dip" side that said "over 20 levels the loss doesn't matter much", not the "dipping is not a great strategy" side.

However, if you break it down level-by-level, the 1-level dip into fighter pays well now with no clear loss later which is, by any rational standard, a good deal.

Dipping 1 level of fighter as a wizard costs you spell progression. Always. A 4th level wizard/1st level fighter can't cast 3rd level spells. A 5th level wizard can. A 5th level wizard/1st level fighter can cast fewer 2nd and 3rd level spells than a 6th level wizard, and casts them less effectively (he is one caster level lower). His familiar is less effective, he loses out on wizard bonus feats, and so on. At any point that you care to make the "dip" the dipping character gives up higher level class abilities in his primary class for low-level class abilities in the "dipped" class, and it is generally a losing proposition, or a wash. And the loss later is clear - the dipped character will never be as good a wizard as the single classed one, he will never get a fourth bonus feat, he will never be able to cast as many upper level spells, and so on.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Sorry about that: math error. Too much number crunching on the fly. I'm pretty sure I got the rest of the numbers right though. Feel free to check.

I did the math and noticed you had replied, and so didn't reply.

16th level nets you a rogue special ability, so the dipper has three.