Does 3E/3.5 dictate a certain style of play?

[thedungeondelver]

I find that it does. AD&D-d20 lends itself to near-immediate superheroics. It takes a lot of DM effort to keep the game from spinning out of control and winding up with characters walking around shouting the names of major demons trying to get them to show up so the party monk can one-punch them.

When I DM'ed d20 D&D*, I found that I had to dispense with the whole challenge rating thing - the (frankly annoying and arrogant) expectation that characters had to get x amounts of gold, XP and magic items to be "on schedule" with certain level presuppositions at a certain point in the game. Otherwise...once again, paladins calling Tiamat out for a rough-and-tumble. I found those rules to be a set of fetters. Treating d20 D&D's rules as "guidelines" to be done away with at my leisure meant that I was basically ripping out and replacing things I found distasteful left and right...which meant at the end of it all I was doing more work to pare the system down to a style of play I like (gritty fantasy, lowered advancement...err...basically AD&D) instead of using what I already had:

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1st Edition.

I have a certain style of play that I prefer as a DM and as a player. And the entirety of players whom I've gamed with haven't had a problem with that, at conventions, or at home.

But I'm wandering. Back to the original question. Yes, again, the game lends itself to out-of-the-box superheroes. And everyone can be one. Orc paladin with a celestial background and all of the baggage that entails? Warforged Halfling Clerics? Dire Weredragon Half-Elves? I don't like those things in my game. I don't allow those things in my game. Those are all suppositions that are allowed out of the box in d20 D&D. Ergo, that play-style associated with those kinds of superheroics is dictated by the rules.

*=YES

 

[buzz]

If you want mysterious, rare magic, in Kord's name, why are you playing D&D?

Amen.

Also: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/20/

So everyone just did it locally. I consider role-playing to have been constructed independently in a vast number of instances across the landscape, sometimes in parallel, sometimes very differently. Over time, further unifications or contact-compromises occurred, whether through tournament standards, military bases, conventions, or APAs, or simply by people meeting when they converged on college campuses. Full unification never occurred. There never existed a single, original D&D.

...

One cannot properly say "D&D does this," or that a game "plays like D&D," without specifying exactly which D&D one means. It's likely that what's being referenced is far more based on local practices and interpretations than on any actual game text.

...

No wonder people either idealize or vilify their youthful experiences playing D&D. On the one hand, it was you and your best-est friends, working something out together and arriving at (quite possibly) your first-ever Social Contract with other people, completely isolated from adults-approved activities. In other words, you remember it fondly not because the game itself was good, but because it wasn't - you remember your repair of it at the Step On Up and Challenge levels, and the good moments, however common or few they were, were all triumphs.

On the other hand, it may have been a horrific degeneration into the worst moments of social breakdown, on a par with any other form of social abuse, and consequently it's reserved in the cellars of your mind with being beaten up in locker rooms, confronted by older kids on the way home from school, or humiliated by siblings.

...

* No single combination of rules and presentation formats may be considered archetypal.
* "D&D" as a term cannot be taken to indicate any particular form of play, especially in reference to the origins of the hobby.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Of course, the item creation is entirely diffrent. My 1e DMG says nothing about when you can create permanent magic items other than "high level magic-users" can do it.

Consult your Player's Handbook. It comes when enchant an item can be cast.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

… Yes, again, the game lends itself to out-of-the-box superheroes. And everyone can be one. Orc paladin with a celestial background and all of the baggage that entails? Warforged Halfling Clerics? Dire Weredragon Half-Elves? I don't like those things in my game. I don't allow those things in my game. Those are all suppositions that are allowed out of the box in d20 D&D. Ergo, that play-style associated with those kinds of superheroes is dictated by the rules.

QFT.

My only issue with 3.x is that it has evolved D&D to a SuperHero game far more than previous editions and that players expect campaigns to reflect this. I believe that this has been in response to the success of computer games. Clearly I'm out of step with the marketplace and I'm OK with that. The pool of available players who enjoy playing D&D the way I do has shrunk considerably which while highly disappointing really shouldn't be a surprise after almost 30 years of gaming. In order for D&D to thrive it must adapt and evolve to meet the needs of the new generation of gamers. My friend Mark runs a 3.5 game for his teenaged son and friends. Mark once told me that D&D has really changed a lot since we last played (1st. Ed AD&D) but that the teens really enjoy it. I say mission accomplished.

For us old fogeys, I see a number of options:
1. Give out a lot less experience points but otherwise play by the rules. Use Core Rules only. Emphasize roleplaying. This keeps the campaign much lower on the superhero scale.
2. Play Castles & Crusades (or older editions of D&D) for that 'old school' feel.
3. Play Conan RPG, Iron Heroes, Thieves' World, Black Company, etc.
4. Play 3.x but with some judicious supplements like Mythic Vistas: Medieval Player's Handbook (best job I've ever seen for capturing the true Medieval feel).
5. Build your own d20 campaign + house rules or RPG.

This allows for varying degrees of compromise between your personal preferences as a GM and the players.

PS. For what's it worth, EGG has posted a number of times that he thinks 3.x has become a superhero game that's veered far away from the traditional archetypes. I wholeheartedly agree with him but add that most D&D players today are happy with that change, as judged by sales. To each his own.

 

[shilsen]

I find that it does. AD&D-d20 lends itself to near-immediate superheroics. It takes a lot of DM effort to keep the game from spinning out of control and winding up with characters walking around shouting the names of major demons trying to get them to show up so the party monk can one-punch them.

I've never played 1e, and very little of 2e, so I may be misinformed here, but from what I've read on these boards from a lot of much more experienced gamers, I get the serious impression that a PC in their teens in 1e (and 2e, but perhaps less so) could go kicking around dragons and demons with the greatest of ease. In 3e, there are a lot of things out there which would give a character of a similar level a much tougher time. I played a little of Against the Giants in 2e and whereas a group of 10th lvl PCs there could walk through G1 without too much difficulty, IIRC, a group of 10th lvl 3e characters would get TPKed if they tried that without being very, very careful. I'm running a 3e game (see sig) with extremely buff 11th lvl PCs, and a bunch of goblins can still give them a very hard time. I believe 3e is the first edition of the game where that's actually possible.

That being said, from what I've seen of D&D across the editions (most of it about the earlier editions being hearsay, as mentioned above), it has always been a superhero game with fantasy trappings. 3e is just much more explicit about it than earlier editions, though still not completely so. It's also a remarkably versatile toolbox, and lots of creative people on these boards are running games that span the entire spectrum. 3e may lend more easily towards certain types of games, but it hardly dictates a style of play, IMNSHO.

 

[thedungeondelver]

I've never played 1e, and very little of 2e, so I may be misinformed here, but from what I've read on these boards from a lot of much more experienced gamers, I get the serious impression that a PC in their teens in 1e (and 2e, but perhaps less so) could go kicking around dragons and demons with the greatest of ease.

That's not the issue; that's going to happen in whatever game you have. Play Champions long enough and you'll have characters using Dr. Destroyer as a houseboy. Play Star Frontiers long enough and the characters will simply send out a few starships full of power-armor wearing troops to deal with the Sathar once and for all. Play Metamorphosis Alpha long enough and the characters will have learned how to "fix" the Warden and get her back on course*. The point, at least my point, is that it happens too fast in d20 D&D.

*=although Jim Ward actually stated that this was a desirable thing; that it was his intention for characters to attain that lofty goal.

 

[Psion]

But I'm wandering. Back to the original question. Yes, again, the game lends itself to out-of-the-box superheroes. And everyone can be one. Orc paladin with a celestial background and all of the baggage that entails? Warforged Halfling Clerics? Dire Weredragon Half-Elves? I don't like those things in my game. I don't allow those things in my game. Those are all suppositions that are allowed out of the box in d20 D&D. Ergo, that play-style associated with those kinds of superheroics is dictated by the rules.

I think you misspeak.

The word you use is dictated. The word that really applies here is allowed. Templates and prestige classes are not in the PHB for a reason, and there is a step 0 to chargen for a reason. Those are not implicitly allowed options. I know many people who don't allow such options at all. I find the word "dictates" in this context off-target.

 

[Crothian]

The point, at least my point, is that it happens too fast in d20 D&D.

Doesn't the DM set the pace of advancement? There are guidelines in the DMG for DMs to give out less XP or just have the players level when the DM wants to so slowing down and speeding up advancement is in the game. One should be able to play at the pace the group wants to.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Doesn't the DM set the pace of advancement? There are guidelines in the DMG for DMs to give out less XP or just have the players level when the DM wants to so slowing down and speeding up advancement is in the game. One should be able to play at the pace the group wants to.

Do they? Can they really? I found that the (frankly needless and restrictive) "challenge rating" rules practically put the DM in a slot-car track and held the trigger all the way down (so to speak); that if I put the players up against, say, a couple of ogres at the wrong point then they were dogmeat (because after all the ogres now have feats and abilities, too), but then at another juncture it was a yawnfest for the players because said ogres were pushovers. Therefore they only came at the exactly right mathematically correct time.

I found that exceedingly irritating.

That also ties in with my dislike of the "one XP chart for everybody" thing, but that's another gripe.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Do they? Can they really? I found that the (frankly needless and restrictive) "challenge rating" rules practically put the DM in a slot-car track and held the trigger all the way down (so to speak); that if I put the players up against, say, a couple of ogres at the wrong point then they were dogmeat (because after all the ogres now have feats and abilities, too), but then at another juncture it was a yawnfest for the players because said ogres were pushovers. Therefore they only came at the exactly right mathematically correct time.

The same was true in 1E and 2E. The ogres might not have had a CR number assigned, but that doesn't change the fact that they were dangerous against a party of X average level, a reasonable challenge for Y average level, and pushovers for Z average level. All the CR system does--with greater or lesser degree of accuracy--is express that particular difficulty level.

Ogres are, in fact, more flexible now, because the DM has the option of tweaking feats or adding class levels.