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Does 3E/3.5 dictate a certain style of play?

Raven Crowking said:
Of course not! :D

However, I note (and have previously agreed) that the UA opened up lots of powergaming options. That's not the same thing as "readily apparent when you crack open the first pages of the PHB".

I concur, though you'll note 3 of the options I mention as problematic were right out of the PHB.

But if one if going to indict 3e for the possible combinations in (literally) dozens of sourcebooks, one ought to call including one central 1e supplement fair game.
 

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Raven Crowking said:
That's not the fault of the rules. That's cheating.

RC

No, that's just good sense. You could have a 17 strength, and get +1 to-hit or damage, or you could have a high percentile strength, and your effectiveness went up x2 or x3. The system itself made a 17 or less strength almost meaningless. In 3rd Edition a strength of 12 gives you +1, 14 gives you +2, 16 gives you +3, 18 gives you +4. The system actually scales instead of doing a J-curve after 17.

I mean, a 16 strength gave you +0 to-hit, and +1 damage? What the heck is that?
 

Raven Crowking said:
Which will increase your overall versatility at 1st level, but it's been my experience that these characters don't level as fast as the rest of the party, and are actually relatively balanced.

Then your experience differs. Sure, they don't level as fast as single classed characters. But, given the geometric progression of the 1e experience point tables, they would generally lag one level behind their single classed counterparts at the same experience point total, and sometimes not even that. At the same experience point total, a 5th level single classed character is usually matched by a 4th/4th level multiclass character. And sacrificing one level in one class for four levels in another is a huge edge.

How, exactly, is this powergaming?

Dual classing was, by its very structure, powergaming. Since the dual classed character used his new class experience point chart for advancement after switching, it usually only took him a level's worth of experience progression match that old class (for a 7th level character, getting enough experience points to become 7th level again), meaning that he was able to add all of the abilities and attributes of a second class at the same level as his previous class in the time that it took his single classed companions to advance one level in their single class. Which would you rather be? A 10th level fighter, or a 9th/9th level fighter/cleric (or whatever)?
 

Raven Crowking said:
I could be wrong, but I thought this was resticted to single class fighters.

You are wrong. In 1e, specialization and double specialization were available to all fighters and rangers. Multiclassed or otherwise.
 


Storm Raven said:
Then your experience differs.

Or yours does. :lol:

IME, this wasn't a huge edge, and multiclassed characters ultimately didn't succeed the way single-classed characters did. Being a fighter who cannot wear armor, for example, meant that many fighter/magic users got a few extra hit points for that drop in level because they only went into combat as a last resort. The multi-classed characters had to divide their XP equally between classes; playing a three-class character was simply suicidal.

Dual classing was, by its very structure, powergaming. Since the dual classed character used his new class experience point chart for advancement after switching, it usually only took him a level's worth of experience progression match that old class

But let us not forget that, if he used any abilities from his previous class he gained no XP for that session. If you're hanging around with your old buddies, the odds are good that you'll either end up falling back on your old skills (for survival) or you won't survive. The rules, therefore, ameleorate the effect you are talking about here. IME, they ameleorate it so much that very few players chose to dual class.

Finally, molonel, changing the outcome of a die roll because you don't like the result you get is cheating, pure and simple. It doesn't matter if it is during character generation, combat, or whathaveyou. You may argue that cheating is "just good sense", but that doesn't change what it is.


RC
 

Raven Crowking said:
Or yours does. :lol:

Perhaps, but, on the other hand, when I was playing AD&D, I moved several times and played with literally dozens of groups. The enhanced effectiveness of multiclassed characters was constant throughout every group.

IME, this wasn't a huge edge, and multiclassed characters ultimately didn't succeed the way single-classed characters did. Being a fighter who cannot wear armor, for example, meant that many fighter/magic users got a few extra hit points for that drop in level because they only went into combat as a last resort. The multi-classed characters had to divide their XP equally between classes; playing a three-class character was simply suicidal.

Ultimately, but then again, most campaigns never got to the point where things that were "ultimately" true actually mattered. You might also note that in 1e, fighter/magic-users were not prevented from wearing armor, so your argument there seems to fall apart. And if that were a problem, think of the class not as a fighter with magic-user tacked on, but as a magic-user with fighter tacked on. Compared to a 6th level magic-user, a 5th/5th level fighter/magic-user gains much, and gives up almost nothing.

The fact that multiclassed character had to divide their experience equally between two classes was not really a hindrance. The nature of the 1e experience point tables meant that they lagged one level behind (or two levels behind for a triple classed character) the single classed characters. But they added all the abilities of a second class one level below that of the single classed character (and sometimes not even that, at several experience point totals, the single classed character would be matched in level by the multiclasser, entirely eliminating the single classers purported advantage).

Given your notes concerning the limitations you think multiclassed characters labored under, I think you are remembering limitations imposed upon them in 2e, many of which appear to have been a direct outgrowth of the abuses they were prone to in 1e. 2e, however, had its own powergaming problems.

But let us not forget that, if he used any abilities from his previous class he gained no XP for that session. If you're hanging around with your old buddies, the odds are good that you'll either end up falling back on your old skills (for survival) or you won't survive. The rules, therefore, ameleorate the effect you are talking about here. IME, they ameleorate it so much that very few players chose to dual class.

They ameliorate it almost not at all. In 1e, especially as played by Gygax and company, it was not uncommon for characters of widely differing levels to adventure together to begin with. The cohesive party of the modern era was not yet developed, and instead parties of dungeon delvers would assemble and set out together, so it was not uncommon for a 5th level character to adventure with some 9th level guys and so on. Further, even if that is not the case, the level ramp up is so fast, that it would take almost no time to bump up to repsetable level in your second class. For a 9th level character, accumulating 2,000 experience points was almost trivial. A fight or two and the resulting plunder probably. That makes you 2nd level. Then third comes quickly too, and before a single night of gaming is done, you probably accumulate enough experience points to beef up to 5th level or so. At that point, solely relying on your new classes abilities for the next couple of weeks or months of gaming is not much of a sacrifice at all.

Finally, molonel, changing the outcome of a die roll because you don't like the result you get is cheating, pure and simple. It doesn't matter if it is during character generation, combat, or whathaveyou. You may argue that cheating is "just good sense", but that doesn't change what it is.

I agree here.
 

Storm Raven said:
Perhaps, but, on the other hand, when I was playing AD&D, I moved several times and played with literally dozens of groups. The enhanced effectiveness of multiclassed characters was constant throughout every group.

Yup. Me too.

Wisconsin (home of D&D), Indiana, Missouri, Lousiana, Virginia.

Ultimately, but then again, most campaigns never got to the point where things that were "ultimately" true actually mattered.

Our mileage obviously varies. :D

You might also note that in 1e, fighter/magic-users were not prevented from wearing armor, so your argument there seems to fall apart.

That's true; but since magic-user spells cannot be cast in armor, the poor schmoe had to choose either to be a magic-user with better hit points and weapons, or a fighter with fewer hit points.

And if that were a problem, think of the class not as a fighter with magic-user tacked on, but as a magic-user with fighter tacked on. Compared to a 6th level magic-user, a 5th/5th level fighter/magic-user gains much, and gives up almost nothing.

Only if you assume that the halving of XP doesn't matter. IME, it mattered quite a bit. We had some multi-classed characters (generally two classes; as mentioned, 3 would be suicidal), but by the time that the single-class characters were mid-level, the effects of multi-classing were certainly being felt.

Simply having fewer hit points made a difference in the groups I played with. Not to mention that the spellcasting types had fewer spells available (which is a bigger deal in 1e than in 3e). Our fighter/magic-user could operate as a magic-user until his spells ran out, and then change into armor, but this was only a good option if you lugged a spare set of armor with you.

I have to say that, although I played 1e in 5 states with hundreds of different people, powergaming was never a problem.

They ameliorate it almost not at all. In 1e, especially as played by Gygax and company, it was not uncommon for characters of widely differing levels to adventure together to begin with.

True. In fact, still true IMC. That doesn't mean that the weaker characters don't die while the stronger ones carry off the loot, though. Hanging out with the big boys was a crap shoot -- like going straight to the lowest level of the dungeon -- it could pay in spades, or you could wind up very, very dead.


RC


EDIT: Of course, I grant that I might have simply been extremely lucky with the groups I ran games for, or played in the games of.
 

Raven Crowking said:
That's true; but since magic-user spells cannot be cast in armor, the poor schmoe had to choose either to be a magic-user with better hit points and weapons, or a fighter with fewer hit points.

Actually, the 1e rules don't actually say that. They say magic-users and illusionist cannot wear armor, but provide no prohibition on casting magic-user spells in armor. Armored 1e fighter/magic-users casting in full plate were the order of the day.
 

Storm Raven said:
Actually, the 1e rules don't actually say that. They say magic-users and illusionist cannot wear armor, but provide no prohibition on casting magic-user spells in armor. Armored 1e fighter/magic-users casting in full plate were the order of the day.


I don't have my books with me at work, so I'll get back to you on this.
 

Into the Woods

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