D&D 4E Does 4E fix the 5-minute workday?

[CleverNickName]

How often is this done? are there any iconic games of movies which have the real baddie swoop in on the heroes after they have been worn down beating the baddie's "Front man" Golden Axe at least had a decent sized gap between Death adder and his boss, generally same principle would apply. However I have seen two-tier versions of the same boss, where heroes think they've beaten it, then it become bigger and nastier for final fight.

It's not a movie, but I can think of at least one classic D&D adventure where the real BBEG only appeared after a "false" one had been defeated.
[SBLOCK]S1: Tomb of Horrors.[/SBLOCK]
I am sure that there are others; it is a classic trick. The point is to deliberately cause the party to waste resources on a henchman dressed as a look-alike, or an illusionary double, or somesuch. And it works like a charm.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Players who are so worried about "losing" that they won't go into any fight at less than 100% effectiveness will continue to want to rest as soon as they have expended their daily power, and are more likely to blow that daily power quickly. Nothing can be designed into the mechanics to stop this from happening except make the PCs always at 100% effectiveness.

What 4e does, by making the PCs about 80% effective in subsequent combats, is give the players less disincentive to keep going.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

This generates a sort of loop: the party that rests more can handle tougher encounters. Tougher encounters use more resources, so the party must rest more. If either of the situations above occurs in game, then the obvious solution only reinforces the initial tendency.

Which is the real problem. A play style tendency of either the players or DM tends to incrementally exacerbate the same tendency in DM or players. The problem is thereby self-reinforcing.

If the PCs' are starting encounters buffed to "150% effectiveness" and waltzing over the opposition without breaking a sweat, what is the DM going to do? Increase the toughness of the encounters.

If the DM is throwing encounters that are "killer" if the PCs are caught unprepared, what is a player going to do? Avoid fights unless buffed to the gills.

The underlying issue is that the potency of PCs is too variable, not just between PC, but more importantly between a single PC and himself due to largely to buffing.

Reduce the scope of the buffing, and the problem is likely to be significantly reduced or go away for most groups.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Personally, had I been designing 4e I would have been tempted to go with a pure per-encounter balancing mechanism, thus eliminating the issue entirely. Alternately, I might have gone for a mix of per-encounter and per-adventure resources (say, split the hit point pool in half - half returns automatically at the end of the encounter, and half can only be regained through extended bed rest for several days to weeks). But that's just me - it will be interesting to see how the rules we're actually getting will play out (and how they will play out a year or two from now, once all the quirks and exploits have come to light).

I had the same preference, but my experience with playing a more "encounter-power"-based party make me believe that there needs to be something like "per day" abilities.

A Warlock can basically go all day (at least if you give him sufficient Wand of Cure Light Wounds). That is very powerful if you encounter a lot of EL = PL encounters. But, if you face one of the EL = PL +4 situations, you'll notice that you don't have any additional resources you can throw into the encounter. And that can seriously hurt your ability to contribute effectively - and possibly survive - the encounter. You can't diverge from the normal medium in encounter difficulty, and that's, well not cool. Sometimes you want to go nova and blow stuff up.

Maybe a "per adventure" resource system would be better then per day. You still have the limited resources that you can use when things go hairy, but nobody can just lay down to rest and get them back in an instant. But this seems even harder for people with bad resource management, since if you accidentally wasted your resources, there is no way you can get them back. I am not sure that's desirable.
(And let's not even talk about the out-cry of s*mulat*on*sts on "adventure-based" resources )

 

[webrunner]

How often is this done? are there any iconic games of movies which have the real baddie swoop in on the heroes after they have been worn down beating the baddie's "Front man" Golden Axe at least had a decent sized gap between Death adder and his boss, generally same principle would apply. However I have seen two-tier versions of the same boss, where heroes think they've beaten it, then it become bigger and nastier for final fight.

Games? Lots of japanese RPGs use that trope.. Often you end up fighting a new character as the final boss instead of the one you just fought (FF9, for instance)

Mechanically, multiple-form bosses are the same as BBEG2 swoops anyway.

 

[Hussar]

Let's put the blame where it belongs. The supposed 5-minute workday exists because some players are just plain stupid. Dullards shouldn't be given the character who is all about resource management. If all you know is to throw damage spells every time you see a monster, then stop playing the spellcaster.

I run convention tournaments where you have your X spells for the game session. There is no resting. There is no recharge. That ain't happening. Smart players do great and creative things with their spells and EVERY version of D&D has had plenty of spells that can be creatively utilized. Give me an Unseen Servant over Magic Missile any day of the week.

It is way past time to drop this nonsensical fallacy.

Let's really place the blame where it should be shall we? Clerical healing.

It wasn't the wizard blowing through his spells. Most encounters don't last long enough for that. I mean, if every encounter lasts 4 rounds, you're only going to need 20 spells for the day at most. Wands and scrolls pretty much take up the slack there.

But, and particularly at higher levels, when the cleric runs out of his bigger healing spells, you stop or you die. Going into a 14th level+ fight without Heal spells is begging for a Raise Dead.

Once the highest level healing gets cast, party's IME stop.

 

[DandD]

Well, it is a combination of both the most powerful offensive spells that wizards and sorccerors have, and the vital healing spells of cleric.

 

[malraux]

Well, it is a combination of both the most powerful offensive spells that wizards and sorccerors have, and the vital healing spells of cleric.

Yeah, IME, the party stops when either the cleric or the mage runs out of top level spells.

 

[Bishmon]

Don't forget that players have some incentive to push forward due to gaining an Action Point and recharging "milestone" abilities in magic items every other encounter. At any given time, characters will have just earned a milestone or will be able to earn one after one more encounter.

I think that's part of the grease that should keep parties moving rather than trying to camp all the time.

But if you rest, you automatically get an action point and your 'milestone' stuff presumably recharges.

 

[Bishmon]

Players who are so worried about "losing" that they won't go into any fight at less than 100% effectiveness will continue to want to rest as soon as they have expended their daily power, and are more likely to blow that daily power quickly. Nothing can be designed into the mechanics to stop this from happening except make the PCs always at 100% effectiveness.

That's not true. I've already given one example for what could be designed into the mechanics to stop that: bonus XP. If you give players bonus XP for a certain number of a encounters in a day, you can pretty much guarantee the players are going to try and get it. It doesn't even have to be much XP, either, because there's few things players love more than XP.