D&D 4E Does 4E fix the 5-minute workday?

[DandD]

Sure there is. Not losing a level, because you needed to be raised back from the dead. Level-loss is kinda a big repellant. And True Ressurection is really really expensive. If it isn't, you don't care for XP anymore either.

 

[Timeboxer]

This is possibly just my players, but I had the following exchange occur at a 4E demo:

"Oh, just use all your daily powers and we'll rest afterward."

This for three encounters in a row. Next time, I think, their characters will be getting savagely mauled.

 

[DandD]

They're still conditioned to 3.X, where it was imperative to have daily powers.
At-Will and Encounter Powers should be good enough that you don't always have to rely on Daily Powers.

 

[SoulStorm]

Well, I think most likely at-will powers besides for being upgraded will probably be able to be swapped out for other at-will powers.

well as things like, items having their own unique properties.

I hope paragon paths and epic destinys provide new at-will power options. Perhaps feats and other class abilities have the potential to modify them as well.

I hope magic items don't provide too much of the characters combat resources. I'd rather a character's prowess be based upon the character, not the character's equipment.

 

[SoulStorm]

Encounter and At-Will-powers are good enough so that you don't have to rely solely on Daily Powers, so I see no need for the party to always rest after one or two encounters (if they stil have enough hitpoints and healing surges, that is). I also don't see the need to penalize players for XP if they don't go fight on five encounters per day. It's only a game, not work, where they have to fill out a encounter quota.
I hope D&D 3.X didn't conditionize you to become a robot-GM, Bishmon.

Encounter powers may be good enough, but I think the effectiveness of at-will powers at higher levels remains to be seen. If high level encounters last 10+ rounds, there's going to be a lot of tempation to start blowing daily powers. Without a robust in-combat recharge mechanic what does one do during 10+ rounds of combat without daily powers?

Of course, there may very well be a robust recharge mechanic, and there may be ways to improve at-wil powers beyond the bump received at 21st level. However, if these mechanics fail to show I'm concerned that high level encounters may prove tedious. Let's hope WOTC did a good job balancing this.

 

[SoulStorm]

And third, we've seen no evidence of any Rope Trick or Magnificent Mansion analogues in the rules so far. It's not proof they're gone, but it's a strong implication.

If these implications are correct, there just won't be any way to call an arbitrary time-out from adventuring. It's not a question of careful encounter design, it's a question of basic practicality- how many adventures exist where you can simply set up camp at a random point and rest for six hours without fear of interruption? You can't retreat across the globe, you can't hole up in an extradimensional space, you have to bring out the cookpot and bedrolls right in the middle of the orc fortress or the haunted swamp. Even the most casual player is going to be able to see that behaving like that is very much likely to drain more resources than it returns.

Well Ximenes088, you make some good points here, but those points also raise further concerns. I like Magnificent Mansion, a lot! I'd hope the designers would find ways to preserve such classic flavorful spells without sacrificing game balance. I don't know exactly how that would work off-hand, but I'd hope that given the man hours WOTC put into this game they figured it out. But yes, simply removing such spells would make the 5-minute work day more difficult to pull off. However, to me that's like hunting deer with an bazooka. Alter them to avoid such exploits, ok. Remove them because the system isn't able to handle them, not ok.

 

[SoulStorm]

I believe that in Races & Classes it was said that a character that has used all their encounter and daily powers is still at about 80% effectiveness, so I don't see any 5 minute workday problem

But where does this 80% number come from? It certainly doesn't come from the 4 encounter and 4 daily powers at 30th level. This 80% effectiveness statement has not been proven true based upon the information revealed thus far. Of course, that may change and my concerns may melt away into nothingness.

 

[Kordeth]

Well Ximenes088, you make some good points here, but those points also raise further concerns. I like Magnificent Mansion, a lot! I'd hope the designers would find ways to preserve such classic flavorful spells without sacrificing game balance.

Whether those specific spells are in the PHB or not, they're the province of rituals--and from what we've heard, rituals take a while (maybe an hour or so for some?) to cast--so while a magnificent mansion ritual might allow higher-level heroes to create an emergency bolt-hole, it still probably requires hunkering down for an hour or so in the middle of the orc fortress or the haunted swamp. That's a little less difficult than camping for 6 hours, but still a challenge.

The real problem with the 5-minute adventuring day, of course, is that you can only take one extended rest per 24 hours--which means the 5-minute workday actually requires thirty hours of rest between adventuring bouts. And that very quickly becomes a logistical impossibility.

But where does this 80% number come from? It certainly doesn't come from the 4 encounter and 4 daily powers at 30th level. This 80% effectiveness statement has not been proven true based upon the information revealed thus far. Of course, that may change and my concerns may melt away into nothingness.

"80% effectiveness" doesn't mean "80% of abilities still available." It means that daily powers only account for about 20% of the PC's overall ability to contribute to combat. A character who blows his daily powers still has his at-will powers, class abilities, racial bonuses, magic item powers, etc. to break out.

 

[Lacyon]

But where does this 80% number come from? It certainly doesn't come from the 4 encounter and 4 daily powers at 30th level. This 80% effectiveness statement has not been proven true based upon the information revealed thus far. Of course, that may change and my concerns may melt away into nothingness.

Just some guesswork: at-will abilities tend to do something like 1x[W] damage + Bonus. Per-encounter abilities do something like 2x[W] + Bonus. Daily powers do approximately 3x[W] + Bonus.

There's rider effects and other complications based on level, but just using this as a baseline, in X rounds of combat, a character with Y encounter powers and no dailies is dealing X * [W + Bonus] + Min(X, Y) * [W] damage (multiplied further by his hit chance, but we can assume that doesn't change too drastically from round to round).

So the guy with 4 per-encounter abilities in a 6-round fight is dealing something like 10*[W] + 6*[Bonus], as opposed to maybe 16*[W] + 6*[ability] if he blows ALL 4 dailies in one fight, or 12*[W] + 6*[Bonus] if he blows one daily and his 4 encounter powers.

Compared to blowing his entire daily load in one fight, he looks to be at ~62% power, assuming Bonus damage is negligible - if the Bonus damage is roughly equal to weapon damage, however, he's coming out to 72%.

In the second comparison, against spending one daily power per fight, he's got ~83% power if bonus damage is negligible, but ~89% if bonus damage is equal to weapon damage.

Just some speculation-based calculations to chew on.

 

[SoulStorm]

"80% effectiveness" doesn't mean "80% of abilities still available." It means that daily powers only account for about 20% of the PC's overall ability to contribute to combat. A character who blows his daily powers still has his at-will powers, class abilities, racial bonuses, magic item powers, etc. to break out.

I know what 80% means, I just don't believe the statement has been proven true as of yet.