Does 4e limit the scope of campaigns?

It's not like I'm saying "Oh yes, this really is real somewhere."
No, I'm presuming you're not crazy. You are however treating it as if there were an independent reality to it.

It's like... the difference between a movie and real life.

You know that, when you get towards the end of the movie, things are going to wrap up. There is going to be finality to it, and then - that's it.

Reality keeps going.

If he were to say that we would keep playing in this setting, then it would be more like reality. The way it is now, it is more like a movie.
But if that later play didn't materialize? Or the DM said there would be further play but was actually lying about it? That's what I don't get. In both cases, the fact of the matter is the same - and it's your decision to treat the game world with any given degree of legitimacy.

Look, if you disagree with my take, that's fine.

No.

No.
I have to ask - why not have several campaign worlds? Wouldn't it be freeing in some ways?

I attempt to head off unexpected questions at the table for this very reason (by providing a wiki, it's not like I try to keep my players in the dark), because I don't like giving off-the-cuff answers because it could possibly mess with versimilitude or - perhaps worse - I may have answered the question on the wiki, but it's been so long that I've forgotten about it and give a different answer now.

Should they be able to make a distinction? I'm not really sure it matters.
I think it kinda does matter. By writing it down, you're asserting that the act of writing it has made it semi-permanent.

If you have written in the Wiki that Bob is the head of the thieves' guild in some remote city, and you instead say that Adam is the head of the thieves' guild in a session, and neither Bob nor Adam have influenced the game in any way... I don't know that there's a value to keeping consistent to something that has never come up in the game and has never passed your players' minds. I don't see how an edit would destroy the game world's integrity or what have you...

At what point does an idea in your head become canonical for the world? On the point of imagining it? On the point of writing it down? Can you later change your mind about it and revise?

-O
 

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No, I'm presuming you're not crazy. You are however treating it as if there were an independent reality to it.

Yes, I am treating it that way. I feel it necessary to continue explaining that I do not actually think it is real because there are some folks who would pounce upon that idea and spend hours arguing with me about it.

Like the whole "how can you care about realism when there are dragons that breathe fire" argument... *sigh*

But if that later play didn't materialize? Or the DM said there would be further play but was actually lying about it? That's what I don't get. In both cases, the fact of the matter is the same - and it's your decision to treat the game world with any given degree of legitimacy.

It's all about perception, then, at that point. If I think that the game might matter in the future, I might care about it more. But because I have no reason to think that, I find difficulty getting into the game.

I have to ask - why not have several campaign worlds? Wouldn't it be freeing in some ways?

To what end? This is my approach to world design and gaming in general; having multiple settings wouldn't change that.

I think it kinda does matter. By writing it down, you're asserting that the act of writing it has made it semi-permanent.

Hrm. Fair enough.

I don't know that there's a value to keeping consistent to something that has never come up in the game and has never passed your players' minds. I don't see how an edit would destroy the game world's integrity or what have you...

Because I would know.

There are varying degrees of inconsistencies and edits, such as this. Some are more important than others - and while I would like for there to be no inconsistencies, I am only human, and have only so much time and memory capacity.

It greatly depends on the level of detail surrounding the inconsistency. If Bob had a massive backstory written up, if there were all kinds of things based upon that fact, and then I go and screw it up... well, that's the kind of error I want to avoid. I may cover up the error by in-game reasoning (for instance, if the players heard from some guy that it was Adam in charge, it may in fact still be Bob, and their source was not reliable), depending upon how the information was presented.

If it was just a casual conversation, and I later find out that I was inconsistent with the wiki, the wiki takes precedence.

At what point does an idea in your head become canonical for the world? On the point of imagining it? On the point of writing it down? Can you later change your mind about it and revise?

I don't think canonical status is boolean like that; I imagine it's a lot more of a gradient, insofar as my setting goes. Something written on the wiki, that has a lot of information interacting with it, is pretty much irrefutable canon. Something on the wiki that is just sort of there... I'd like to avoid contradicting it, but if I do, it's not really a big deal.

If something on the wiki contradicts an idea I had, then I work to modify the idea so that it fits. So ideas are less canonical than the wiki, though they may have some amount of canonical status given that I don't put everything I think of on the wiki (my plans for my next game, for instance).

Revising information, that again falls under the "how important and ingrained in the setting is this" idea. If an earlier idea seems to not be working out, or I've had a better one that would be better, my willingness to change it is dependent upon how important the information is. I have revised things, in the past, though as time goes on I do so less and less.
 


I'd say those are tremendous evidence to support my case, yes. In their ups, downs, treatment of game-related topics, repercussions on game play, etc.

For example, it's often interesting to consider what facets of a game setting are actively ignored by writers of fiction for that game setting, and how characters, items, rituals, etc from books are portrayed in game terms.
 

The fact a skill challenge, no matter how long it takes, is considered to be a single "encounter" interacts poorly with "encounter powers recharge after a short rest".
Is this fact stated in the DMG? I don't recall reading anything like that, but it's been a while (and then that whole chapter got rewritten in the errata...).
 

No, I'm presuming you're not crazy. You are however treating it as if there were an independent reality to it.

Which is probably the point. I'm not a big fan of that kind of play (unless it's Call of Cthulhu), but it's cool. I think it's awesome that GW has put all this creative effort into his game. Creative effort that I think will be rewarded in play by his player's engagement into the world he's created.

And together they end up changing the world, following the PC's choices to their natural consequences.

This is Simulationism and it's a good, creative, engaging way to play the game.
 

This is Simulationism and it's a good, creative, engaging way to play the game.

For some DMs and some players, yes. Which is the whole point - if you've got the players who want that, that's what you do. That's what they find fun, so it's the right choice.
 

Is this fact stated in the DMG? I don't recall reading anything like that, but it's been a while (and then that whole chapter got rewritten in the errata...).

I asked about this on ENworld a few weeks back, when the issue of my using Crucial Advice more than once during a long-term challenge came up in play, and the hivemind consensus was, barring extremely unusual circumstances, the CS was "an encounter" and any encounter power could be used only once.
 


Well, it seems like a reasonable interpretation. I was curious about it being a "fact" since you referred to it as such a few times here - the DMG section on skill challenges is kinda skimpy as I recall and I don't think it gets that specific.

And after reading the latest skill challenge article from Mearls, where he constructs one that covers many days and is concurrent with other events, I don't know that that interpretation necessarily holds water. I would probably go with Keterys' take, myself.
 

However, whatever game I'm running, the PCs are the focus of that game. It is their story, and while the world story - or even the stories of other simultaneous PC groups - may have an impact on it, we're more interested in the story of the group, for the purposes of a game.
Keep in mind also that it is quite possible to have multiple "worlds" all use the one base design, provided it's deep enough.

To use the world I'm currently running as an example, if I may. Right now I'm running a dual-party campaign in the Greek-like lands. But once that winds down I could turn around and start an entirely different campaign in a far-away Celtic-based land, or Norse, or whatever; the point is the players don't need to know it's the same world I used for the last campaign, only recycled. :) Meanwhile, if I ever got so ambitious I could be writing a book about events in a third part of the same world....

Never mind the colossal amount of use you can get out of a single world if you start using different times in its history as the backdrop for your stories/campaigns/whatever.

Lanefan
 

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