Does 4e limit the scope of campaigns?

[ProfessorPain]

Also, who besides the characters with many skillpoints could participate well?

I never liked having class and cross-class skills in 3E. But I do think it is okay to have some classes have more skills than others (especially since it is the rogues thing in 3E). Everyone could participate, but sure mystery adventures will favor charaters that possess investigation related skills. I don't really have a problem with that. Also, even in a mystery adventure there will be combat and other threats, so in the hands of a competent DM everyone will have a chance to shine.

By the way, I am not trying to trash 4E here. Lots of really good games have consolidated skill lists. And they sure help keep the game going, and help place greater emphasis on role play. But in an adventure that is so focused on skill use, having a beefier skill list, with greater variation in ability between characters (through skill points or ranks), works better in my view. And I said before, if the players and GM prefer to role play those kinds of interactions rather than Roll them; then the point is moot.

 

[Remathilis]

WARNING-WARNING-PERSONAL OPINION BEING STATED HERE
Because 4E has a smaller and highly consolidated skill list. 3E has an extensive skill list, and the ability to take ranks in individual skills. If you are running a mystery adventure, there are simply more skills that are appropriate. And because it is not consolidated, there is a little more texture at work.

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1.) First off, how many skills were "lost"? Appraise, Craft, Perform, Profession, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope. Every other skill got rolled into something else. There is no need for UMD, and all the others could be handled with a simple ability check. Appraise aside, I don't think any of those skills help a mystery adventure.

2.) How does taking ranks help anything? All it means is you can't accurately predict if the PC will hit the DC needed.

Lets say you have a clue that can only be found by talking around to people (Gather Info/Streetwise). Your first group has a rogue with max ranks, a fighter with a cha penalty, a wizard who through a few c.c. ranks, and a cleric with no ranks but a decent cha. What do you set the DC at. Set it too high and only the rogue has a chance at it (Others can't make it without magic or such). Set it too low, and your rogue will breeze it so why bother making the others roll. In 4e, the difference in trained/untrained is 5, so its easier to guess at what a good DC should be.

So I fail to see texture, unless you mean "more than likely, the PCs won't have the appropriate ranks to solve this by rolling."

 

[ProfessorPain]

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1.) First off, how many skills were "lost"? Appraise, Craft, Perform, Profession, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope. Every other skill got rolled into something else. There is no need for UMD, and all the others could be handled with a simple ability check. Appraise aside, I don't think any of those skills help a mystery adventure.

2.) How does taking ranks help anything? All it means is you can't accurately predict if the PC will hit the DC needed.

Lets say you have a clue that can only be found by talking around to people (Gather Info/Streetwise). Your first group has a rogue with max ranks, a fighter with a cha penalty, a wizard who through a few c.c. ranks, and a cleric with no ranks but a decent cha. What do you set the DC at. Set it too high and only the rogue has a chance at it (Others can't make it without magic or such). Set it too low, and your rogue will breeze it so why bother making the others roll. In 4e, the difference in trained/untrained is 5, so its easier to guess at what a good DC should be.

So I fail to see texture, unless you mean "more than likely, the PCs won't have the appropriate ranks to solve this by rolling."

1) The problem here is the consolidation and how it impacts variety. Yes there are ability checks and mechanics to take care of these things; but if you want to design an "Investigator" or a skill character whose skills shine in a murder mystery, being able to take and improve skills matters.

2) Ranks matter because they allow for varience in skill level between characters who possess the same skill. And they allow for being okay at something, mediocre, or great.

You set the DC at however difficult it should be. Tailoring DCs to the party composition is silly. Climbing a greasy ladder should always be just as hard. It shouldn't get harder, because you get better at climbing.

 

[ProfessorPain]

So I fail to see texture, unless you mean "more than likely, the PCs won't have the appropriate ranks to solve this by rolling."

No it means one guy might breeze through, another might get by the skin of his teeth, and another fails completely.

 

[Irda Ranger]

That sort of high magic investigation game would not work in a 4e model, as the main abilities of the characters (powers) do not translate well outside of combat.

Last time I check the combat rules of 3e (or BECMI, 1e or 2e) didn't apply out of combat either. Those powers you mention are "attack powers." So I really don't see how 4E is different from the other editions in that respect.

And for what you want, I think 4e is more suited than BECMI, 1E or 2E. 4E has Skills, Skills Challenges and Backgrounds. 2E had Non-Weapon Proficiencies. BECMI had not much. And all editions have roleplaying in equal measure.

My question here is, does 4e impose a larger restriction on campaign setting/tone than is present in earlier editions?

IMO (obviously), no. The 4E books spend a lot of time (and ink) on attack powers and battle-gear, but that in no way diminishes the rest of the game. Make of it what you will. Especially the roleplaying.

What, really, can be done using a 4e campaign setting using rules as written?

You want an exhaustive list? I am quite sure I couldn't write one. I keep coming up with new ideas all the time.

The most important thing to realize is how easy it is to re-write the fluff. I wanted a Firbolg race and just reflavored all the Dragonborn rules without changing any of them. You can do the same thing for the classes too, mostly. The Cleric and Paladin could just as easily be Jedi or some secular warrior order from The Tome of Battle.

What can be done if you tweak the rules a bit?

However big the previous list is, this one's 10x bigger. Most games would be accomplished with rule additions though, not changes. You could layer a horror mechanic on top of 4E without changing how combat works, for instance. Or dehyrdration. Whatever.

4e is focused on combat, and the combat rules are well playtested. I wouldn't change them, but I might add to them. Stalker0's alt-Skill Challenge mechanic is a good example.

And what sort of settings would require a complete rules overhaul?

Like any previous edition of D&D, historical accuracy.

 

[I'm A Banana]

1.) First off, how many skills were "lost"? Appraise, Craft, Perform, Profession, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope. Every other skill got rolled into something else. There is no need for UMD, and all the others could be handled with a simple ability check. Appraise aside, I don't think any of those skills help a mystery adventure.

2.) How does taking ranks help anything? All it means is you can't accurately predict if the PC will hit the DC needed.

Both of those things are related to granularity, to each character contributing something unique ("noncombat roles" elsewhere). A character with 5 ranks in Use Rope was different than a character with 10 ranks in it, and both of those characters were different than someone with 7 ranks in Appraise.

I'm not totally on board with the idea that this specific granularity (skill ranks and more skills) is the (or even a) big reason 3e does it better, but it is fair to say that overall, 4e's equalization of everyone across the noncombat spectrum is one of the big reason that 4e sucks so hard at giving us an interesting noncombat challenge. In combat, the fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric all contribute in markedly different ways to success. In the skill challenge system (for instance), everyone is equal as long as their case to the DM is vaguely persuasive. This is good if you don't want to focus much on using the skill challenge system (it's a nice patch to get you through that and onto what you really want to focus on -- a fun minigame), but if the focus of your game is on things the skill challenge system would model, it leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Remathilis]

No it means one guy might breeze through, another might get by the skin of his teeth, and another fails completely.

Yeah, but unless your investigator-type PC isn't going to share that info, the first person who makes the DC wins.

Take that gather info roll. You decide the info requires a DC 15.

The Rogue has +11. He has a real hard time failing.
The Fighter is at -2. Not a good chance.
The Wizard is +6, Not good, not bad.
The Cleric is +2. Better than the Fighter.

Unless the rogue rolls a 1, 2, or 3, the DC is met and the info gleaned. He gladly shares this knowledge with his friends (who all failed their rolls by miles) and the result is the same; PCs learn info.

Of course, that's assuming a skill like that with no risk to failure. If that were a JUMP check, then the rogue would leap across while the wizard prepped a Dimension Door for the others.

 

[ProfessorPain]

Yeah, but unless your investigator-type PC isn't going to share that info, the first person who makes the DC wins.

Take that gather info roll. You decide the info requires a DC 15.

The Rogue has +11. He has a real hard time failing.
The Fighter is at -2. Not a good chance.
The Wizard is +6, Not good, not bad.
The Cleric is +2. Better than the Fighter.

Unless the rogue rolls a 1, 2, or 3, the DC is met and the info gleaned. He gladly shares this knowledge with his friends (who all failed their rolls by miles) and the result is the same; PCs learn info.

Of course, that's assuming a skill like that with no risk to failure. If that were a JUMP check, then the rogue would leap across while the wizard prepped a Dimension Door for the others.

Sure. And if he spent that many ranks to get the +11, he deserves to breeze through when the skill comes up. But solving a mystery shouldn't hinge on 1 skill. Another reason why the consolidated skill list doesn't work as well in this situation. It puts more possibilities on the table.

Hey if the skills in 4E work well for you with investigation adventures. That is great. I just found I had more fun solving mysteries with the 3E skill system.

 

[Greg K]

Oh. Well, fair enough then. I just took the words at face value.

Don't feel bad. I did as well.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Sure. And if he spent that many ranks to get the +11, he deserves to breeze through when the skill comes up. But solving a mystery shouldn't hinge on 1 skill. Another reason why the consolidated skill list doesn't work as well in this situation. It puts more possibilities on the table.

The point is that a character at level 10 with 2 ranks in Diplomacy was completely useless at it. It was much better to have a group with a Rogue with max ranks in Search, Bluff, Gather Information, Hide and Sneak and a Cleric with max ranks in Diplomacy and Knowledge(Religion) and so on than it was to have a group whose Rogue had 3 ranks in Knowledge(Religion) and 3 ranks less than max in Bluff with the same Cleric.

Therefore, the granularity of the system wasn't helpful at all except as an illusion. Sure, it let you play a character that you could say "knows a little bit about religion because of his upbringing in the monastery", but in actual play it meant that you rolled and failed to know anything while the Cleric made it and knew everything. Meanwhile, you failed to roll high enough on your Bluff because it was so low.

It's not about hinging on one skill. As everyone else has pointed out, all of the skills that vanished from the list were not useful in solving mysteries at all. There are just as many skills as before for this purpose. You still spread things amongst the skills. In fact, I don't see any change I'd make at all for an investigative adventure in 4e. Other than to rely more on freeform roleplaying and less on skill checks in order to make the actual players do some thinking and figuring things out.