D&D 5E Does anyone else feel like the action economy and the way actions work in general in 5e both just suck?

[tetrasodium]

I also find the "well I'll just have a gang of children do this" arguments weird. How exactly did you convince a bunch of 7-year-olds to go charging at a cloud giant, anyway?

not so clear cut if the situation is say... sauron's forces coming to torture rape & kill everyone behind the walls including the children & the adults using weapons that may or not include varying degrees of makeshift weapons instead of charging a cloud giant eh?

 

[Undrave]

I also find the "well I'll just have a gang of children do this" arguments weird. How exactly did you convince a bunch of 7-year-olds to go charging at a cloud giant, anyway?

You could also get Halflings, Gnomes or Goblins to do it now that I think about it. Maybe Kobolds in a pinch.

 

[TwoSix]

An Ogre doing grapple things IS RAW. How is it not? Where does it say monsters can only do things in their star block and not do general purpose attacks?

It's not that they can't do it...it's just by RAW, they can't do it well.

Which is why you should always ignore RAW the minute it gives you a hassle.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Sure, such things should be a natural thing for such creatures to do. But RAW they aren't--and that's the flaw.

An Ogre doing grapple things IS RAW. How is it not? Where does it say monsters can only do things in their star block and not do general purpose attacks?

By my saying "such things should be a natural thing"--I mean a GOOD thing. By that I mean something they can do and expect a reasonable chance of success. Ogres trying to grapple most characters, even in tier 1, are lucky if they will succeed half of the time. Let's think about this:

Ogre gets +4 to a STR check vs. a PC's STR (Athletics) or DEX (Acrobatics). The Ogre only wins if they roll higher and loses on a tie. IME even a Wizard or other caster will typically have a DEX +2. At the higher end, you have +4 or +5 even, and a maximum with expertise of +7 is possible.

Even at the low end of +2, the Ogre's chance of success is 57.25%. Ok, but not great.

At the higher end, say +5, the chance drops to 42.75%. Depending on the target's AC the Ogre might be better off attacking (where it will win ties).

At the extreme end, say +7, the Ogre's only wins 34%--barely 1 in 3 attempts.

Next, what is the benefit of grappling? Not much really. The grappled creature's speed is 0 and you can move up to half your speed carrying/dragging the creature. Meanwhile, the grappled creature can still attack normally and cast spells, and isn't taking any damage from the Ogre. Meanwhile, if the Ogre attacks, it will hit about 50/50 and any hit should drop most level 1 PCs (avg. dmg 13).

Now, IMO grappling is not a good option for Ogres against most PCs, even at lower levels. So, as I said, RAW they aren't [good at things they should be naturally at]--and that's the flaw."

As to the rest of your post. Nothing says you can't do things in the stat blocks, and I never claimed otherwise. I already acknowledged that you can attempt such things. I just don't think it generally is a good idea because it is not as effective as attacking.

I can't speak for others, but for myself, the issue is that many creatures can try to do such things, but often times those efforts are not very effective. I see this as a design flaw myself, because many such actions should have a good chance of working--but just don't. For instance, Ogres have STR 19 but no proficiency in Athletics. A level 1 PC with STR 16 and proficiency in Athletics is +5 versus the Ogre's +4. So, the ogre would more likely fail in the attempt than succeed.

So, to put an end to it: I DO think Ogres should be better at grappling and other STR-based moves, but if you look at the numbers they usually aren't, so it isn't an effective strategy. That is why I say it is a design flaw.

 

[Undrave]

By my saying "such things should be a natural thing"--I mean a GOOD thing. By that I mean something they can do and expect a reasonable chance of success. Ogres trying to grapple most characters, even in tier 1, are lucky if they will succeed half of the time. Let's think about this:

Ogre gets +4 to a STR check vs. a PC's STR (Athletics) or DEX (Acrobatics). The Ogre only wins if they roll higher and loses on a tie. IME even a Wizard or other caster will typically have a DEX +2. At the higher end, you have +4 or +5 even, and a maximum with expertise of +7 is possible.

Even at the low end of +2, the Ogre's chance of success is 57.25%. Ok, but not great.

At the higher end, say +5, the chance drops to 42.75%. Depending on the target's AC the Ogre might be better off attacking (where it will win ties).

At the extreme end, say +7, the Ogre's only wins 34%--barely 1 in 3 attempts.

Next, what is the benefit of grappling? Not much really. The grappled creature's speed is 0 and you can move up to half your speed carrying/dragging the creature. Meanwhile, the grappled creature can still attack normally and cast spells, and isn't taking any damage from the Ogre. Meanwhile, if the Ogre attacks, it will hit about 50/50 and any hit should drop most level 1 PCs (avg. dmg 13).

Now, IMO grappling is not a good option for Ogres against most PCs, even at lower levels. So, as I said, RAW they aren't [good at things they should be naturally at]--and that's the flaw."

As to the rest of your post. Nothing says you can't do things in the stat blocks, and I never claimed otherwise. I already acknowledged that you can attempt such things. I just don't think it generally is a good idea because it is not as effective as attacking.



So, to put an end to it: I DO think Ogres should be better at grappling and other STR-based moves, but if you look at the numbers they usually aren't, so it isn't an effective strategy. That is why I say it is a design flaw.

There clearly should be modifiers for grappling something smaller than you, that would compensate for some wonkiness.

And there is a grappler feat that includes rules for pinning.

A shove might be a better move for the Ogre, and THEN a grapple so they're prone and grappled?

 

[Istbor]

I think the action economy is fine. Helps retain some balance in places it could get out of hand.
Offers some builds meaningful choices when considering what you want to spend your bonus action or reaction on.

And with some of the wiggle room there, it affords me, the GM to perhaps dish out cool magic items that help to cheat this economy or turn it to 11 for limited times per day.

I like it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

There clearly should be modifiers for grappling something smaller than you, that would compensate for some wonkiness.

I agree completely! And the fact that this wasn't done is the flaw IMO. Which is why our table house-ruled skills and saves into ALL monsters.

And there is a grappler feat that includes rules for pinning.

A shove might be a better move for the Ogre, and THEN a grapple so they're prone and grappled?

As for the feat, that rule only applies if you have the feat. Nothing to say you couldn't give all Ogres (who I think we could easily see wrestling and shoving each other around since birth) the Grappler feat.

As for the particular move, the shove uses the same mechanics as the grapple. If you have two Ogres, one could shove and the other could grapple if the shove is successful, but since they only get one attack, a single Ogre can't do both as it would take two rounds. It is possible to grapple and then shove prone, but again, two rounds and the target has to not escape the grapple, which is roughly 50/50 again...

Good house-rules are basically the only way to solve it if the table wants creatures to be good at things they should be good at. Because they were often designed poorly, too many monsters are just bags of HP otherwise. Pity.

 

[Oofta]

By my saying "such things should be a natural thing"--I mean a GOOD thing. By that I mean something they can do and expect a reasonable chance of success. Ogres trying to grapple most characters, even in tier 1, are lucky if they will succeed half of the time. Let's think about this:

Ogre gets +4 to a STR check vs. a PC's STR (Athletics) or DEX (Acrobatics). The Ogre only wins if they roll higher and loses on a tie. IME even a Wizard or other caster will typically have a DEX +2. At the higher end, you have +4 or +5 even, and a maximum with expertise of +7 is possible.

Even at the low end of +2, the Ogre's chance of success is 57.25%. Ok, but not great.

At the higher end, say +5, the chance drops to 42.75%. Depending on the target's AC the Ogre might be better off attacking (where it will win ties).

At the extreme end, say +7, the Ogre's only wins 34%--barely 1 in 3 attempts.

Next, what is the benefit of grappling? Not much really. The grappled creature's speed is 0 and you can move up to half your speed carrying/dragging the creature. Meanwhile, the grappled creature can still attack normally and cast spells, and isn't taking any damage from the Ogre. Meanwhile, if the Ogre attacks, it will hit about 50/50 and any hit should drop most level 1 PCs (avg. dmg 13).

Now, IMO grappling is not a good option for Ogres against most PCs, even at lower levels. So, as I said, RAW they aren't [good at things they should be naturally at]--and that's the flaw."

As to the rest of your post. Nothing says you can't do things in the stat blocks, and I never claimed otherwise. I already acknowledged that you can attempt such things. I just don't think it generally is a good idea because it is not as effective as attacking.



So, to put an end to it: I DO think Ogres should be better at grappling and other STR-based moves, but if you look at the numbers they usually aren't, so it isn't an effective strategy. That is why I say it is a design flaw.

I could see implementing advantage on smaller creatures, but I think it's a judgement call. I kind of view ogres as clumsy/stupid brutes. Not sure they should be better at grappling; it depends on how you envision them.

But the MM is written without optional rules in mind, feats are an optional rule.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I could see implementing advantage on smaller creatures, but I think it's a judgement call. I kind of view ogres as clumsy/stupid brutes. Not sure they should be better at grappling; it depends on how you envision them.

But the MM is written without optional rules in mind, feats are an optional rule.

Sure, vision of the monster is a huge part of it, so I am advocating how I think Ogres should be/act.

And I agree, size certainly should have been more of factor. I understand skill is a big part of it though. A 150-lb man can wrestle a 1500-lb steer to the ground.

I would avoid feats as well, I was simply saying you could do it as one way to make them better at grappling. I like simply giving them proficiency in Athletics, and that is what our table does.

 

[Oofta]

Sure, vision of the monster is a huge part of it, so I am advocating how I think Ogres should be/act.

And I agree, size certainly should have been more of factor. I understand skill is a big part of it though. A 150-lb man can wrestle a 1500-lb steer to the ground.

I would avoid feats as well, I was simply saying you could do it as one way to make them better at grappling. I like simply giving them proficiency in Athletics, and that is what our table does.

I see said the blind man.