Does Anyone Ever 'Recast' Monster Roles?

[Tequila Sunrise]

Say your party defeats a young white dragon on their first adventure. It's tough, but they're victorious. They don't see any white dragons for a while, but about ten level later, they encounter a clutch of young whites which the DM has recast as standard level 13 monsters. (The original dragon could be one of them, or not.) Again, the encounter is tough, this time because there're more dragons, but the party wins out. Finally, a few levels later, the party encounters a small horde of young whites (level 23 minions). The dragons are a nuisance, but the party laughs as the little whities drop like flies.

Have you ever done this as a DM, or experienced this as a player? I'm trying to work out whether this was a selling point of 4e, or just one of my own hair-brained ideas.

 

[eamon]

I've done this, though the last time I did so systematically was actually in 3e. I like the idea; but it depends more on the campaign than the ruleset... Lots of thematically recurring forces over a wide level spread? Then it works well.

 

[keterys]

Done it plenty, myself.

For a while, I was actually having a lot of fun converting monsters to their minion variants so I could use lots of them at higher level, and had visions of swarms of beholder minions or dragons at epic.

I had a level differential I'd use to figure out where to put them... (digs)

XP Difference:
Standard -> Minion: 8 levels
Elite -> Minion: 12 levels
Solo -> Minion: 17 levels

(Should roughly result in about the same xp value, which I figure keeps things fairly honest)

It was pre MM3, so I'd probably have to redo damage values (I had a spreadsheet that predicted output that I used instead), couple examples:

Gibbering Mouther, 18th level minion
AC 32, F30, R28, W32
Speed 5, Swim 5
Gibbering (Aura 5); enemies that end their turn in the aura take 5 damage and are dazed until the start of their next turn.
Bite +23 vs AC; ~10 damage and 5 acid

Bugbear Strangler - Level 14 minion
AC 28, F27, R27, W25
Garotte ~10 dmg (15 w/ CA) and target grabbed (until escape). Sustain standard 15 damage.
Body Shield (Interrupt, when targeted by a melee or a ranged attack against AC or Reflex; at-will) Redirect to grabbed target.

 

[KidSnide]

I do this all the time as well, although usually in the opposite direction. My PCs level very slowly, so I rewrite higher level standard and elite monsters as solos for my PCs to fight.

-KS

 

[Quickleaf]

I've only done this with standards to minions, but it worked quite well. They were 1st level mercenaries with about 30 hit points; when the PCs were regularly doing damage in that ballpark (5th level or so) I reintroduced them as 5th level minions. The players felt pretty badass taking them out with one hit.

I'd be curious how it works for solos or elites.

 

[Kung Fu Ferret]

This reminds me of how my friend first explained the concept minions to me.

At low levels an ogre is a serious threat. He's going to stick around and do some damage. Later on an ogre is just a nuisance, one solid hit and he goes away. What you have to remember is that its the same ogre.

 

[NexH]

I have been doing it very often for my currently epic campaign, usually to make minions (using keterys' system).
It is a very good way of showcasing the PCs' growth in power, and it greatly increases the level range in which you can use the "same" monster.

 

[Unwise]

I re-use monsters all the time. The often go from Elite-Standard-Minion all the way to Swarm.

My players have gained enough levels that kobolds are no longer much of a threat, even as minions they are much low level than them. When they decided to pick on a kobold clan, I simply made the clan into a few swarms instead. Two swarms acted as tanks (they were the clans Dragonshields). Two swarms were the hunters, acting as skirmishers/artillery. One swarm was elite and was the combination of the clans warlords, shamans and magicians. It stayed back using leader style effects.

This turned what would have been an uninteresting cakewalk through minions that could not hit them, into a challenging battle. They still felt uber, as I described every sweep of their greatswords chopping through 3 or 4 kobolds, sweeping them aside.

As a GM though, you need to keep in mind the motivations of anyone that is a minion and especially a swarm to the PCs. Sure a bunch of kobolds can join together an attack as a swarm, giving them a decent chance against the PCs. Remember though that they are individuals, so why the heck would they? Heaps of them are going to get slaughtered.

Why would that minion guard try to stop the heroes? Is he a bad judge of uberness? Is he that terrified of this master? A minion by default has no more desire to fight the PCs than the PCs have to fight a solo monster 8 levels higher than them.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Okay, good, I'm not alone.

Does anyone find it weird that recast monsters have noticeably different skill bonuses?

I've done this, though the last time I did so systematically was actually in 3e. I like the idea; but it depends more on the campaign than the ruleset... Lots of thematically recurring forces over a wide level spread? Then it works well.

Wow, recasting in 3e? I'm shudder to imagine all the number crunching, but how did you do it?

XP Difference:
Standard -> Minion: 8 levels
Elite -> Minion: 12 levels
Solo -> Minion: 17 levels

(Should roughly result in about the same xp value, which I figure keeps things fairly honest)

Until I saw your xp explanation, I was scratching my head over your recasting scheme.

I've only done this with standards to minions, but it worked quite well. They were 1st level mercenaries with about 30 hit points; when the PCs were regularly doing damage in that ballpark (5th level or so) I reintroduced them as 5th level minions. The players felt pretty badass taking them out with one hit.

I'd be curious how it works for solos or elites.

I've recast the goristro demon as a paragon level solo. Overall it was a fun monster, but I have learned since then and have gotten an idea or two.

Why would that minion guard try to stop the heroes? Is he a bad judge of uberness? Is he that terrified of this master? A minion by default has no more desire to fight the PCs than the PCs have to fight a solo monster 8 levels higher than them.

In that case, it's no wonder that minions regularly line up to fight PCs. If most PCs are any indicator of in-game motivation, seeing a vaguely threatening creature with lots of shiny objects is reason enough to attack anyone.

 

[Barastrondo]

A-yep, quite frequently. A gang of wharf toughs that might have been a tough threat at 4th level is pretty much a pile of level 8 or 9 minions if a 9th-level group rolls through.

I tend to think of stat blocks not as representing innate characteristics of a monster, but as a set of mechanics designed to model specific mechanical interactions with that monster. I like the context to define the mechanics, rather than the mechanics defining the context.