Does anyone have easy fixed DCs for Spot checks?

[Noumenon]

For starting encounters, does anyone have anything worked out that would be as easy as this:

Spot DC ---- Encounter starts at
10 ----------- 30 ft
15 ----------- 60 ft
20 ----------- 150 ft
25 ----------- 300 ft

All that 6d6 x 100 feet and -1 for every 10 feet stuff is way too clunky to use. Could I just use this table I made up without any tweaking?

 

[Jack Simth]

You could, yes. When I'm DM'ing, I generally don't pay overly much attention to encounter distances, myself. They're generally in relatively enclosed areas anyway.

 

[Noumenon]

My group usually has to travel several days to get to a dungeon. That means a lot of overland encounters. I want the encounters to start as far apart as possible so there's more opportunity for ranged attacks and buffing. There's not even time to drink a potion in most fights because they start with a charge and only last five rounds.

I hate calling for Spot checks anyway. Maybe I'll just have all encounters begin at 300 feet x terrain factor (1 for plains, 1/2 for swamps, 1/3 for forests).

 

[Herzog]

Why not use this table:

Spot DC ---- Encounter starts at
5------------ 50 ft
10 ----------- 100 ft
15 ----------- 150 ft
20 ----------- 200 ft
25 ----------- 250 ft

Substract 5 from the spot roll if the characters are distracted.

NB: this follows EXACTLY the -1 per 10 foot rule, assuming the target DC for spotting someone not attempting to hide is 0.
Adjust upward when you think this is too easy.

Example for base target DC 5:

Spot DC ---- Encounter starts at
5------------ 0 ft
10 ----------- 50 ft
15 ----------- 100 ft
20 ----------- 150 ft
25 ----------- 200 ft

 

[Noumenon]

NB: this follows EXACTLY the -1 per 10 foot rule, assuming the target DC for spotting someone not attempting to hide is 0.

That assumption is the key reason I couldn't generate my own table! Thank you! It's weird that Listen has a big table of DCs and modifiers but Spot has no DCs at all. Once we assume a DC of 0, we don't even need a table -- just roll your Spot check and multiply it by 10 feet.

And now that I've thought about that for a while, here's my "house rule" that's really just restating the RAW in a form a DM can use:

Encounters start at a distance of 10 feet times the amount your highest Spot or Listen check beat the DC.

Why couldn't that be in the DMG somewhere? The very first thing you do when combat starts is wonder, "How far apart do I put the minis?" and the game gives you no direct guidance on that.

This leads to encounters at first level starting at 70-260 feet (with a Spot of +6) and encounters at tenth level starting at 160-350 feet (with a Spot of +15). You won't get any point blank encounters in wide open terrain, but you can always use Hide or hills to create them. But I think it will be fun to differentiate outdoors from dungeons with longer starting distances. It will give more room for mounted combat, buffing, pre-combat huddles for strategy sessions, long range spells, and approaching through cover to avoid ranged attacks. And the neat thing is, it's straight out of the PHB!

 

[Noumenon]

A couple more thoughts on this --

I didn't realize it before, but this means that Hide is always worthwhile. No matter what they roll, if you have +8 to hide they will have to get 80 feet closer to spot you. This isn't clear in the RAW, which makes it sound as though Spot > Hide = failure to hide.

When you do it this way, surprise rounds become common. For example, I roll 5 on my Spot and the orc rolls 9. That's enough for the orc to spot me from 90 feet away. Now he's aware of me and I'm not. Does he deserve a surprise round? What if one orc rolls 15 and one rolls 9? Does the first one get two surprise rounds?

Maybe you should rule that the spotter becomes aware of the opponent at the end of his move (from 120 feet away to 90 feet away in this case), so that he only gets a surprise round if you're still unaware of him at the end of your move (which would put you 60 feet apart).

These thoughts don't seem like they fit into the framework of the rules, so maybe there's something about my restatement that is wrong. Maybe this is the same as saying "You get -2 for each range increment, so if you have +14 to attack you can shoot someone with AC 10 from a distance of 2 to 11 range increments." No, it's not the same - the difference is that Spot doesn't take an action and is always on, so you really can assume you're making a check every 10 feet.

 

[Noumenon]

I found a two-page Sage Advice column in Dragon 287 touching on this issue. His system is to roll the spotting distance by terrain type (say, 6d6*10, or 420 feet), and then do Spot checks at that distance. He throws in a large number of modifiers (size, contrast, number of characters, motion). If neither party makes the spot check at 420 feet, then he starts combat at half of that distance (210 feet) with both sides aware.

If one party does make the spot check, he gives them surprise unless they close within 210 feet. Or he gives them the opportunity to use Hide, and then he gives the other group Spot checks when they close to 210 feet, 105 feet, and one last one at 30 feet.

He doesn't usually give both Listen and Spot checks for one encounter -- just whichever gives the better chance of success. In general, he uses Spot checks outdoors and Listen checks indoors, where spotting distance is determined by illumination and line of sight.

I think I still like my simple rule better, but I am going to adapt it because of his discussion of surprise rounds. I'll say

Encounters start at a distance of 10 feet times the amount your Spot or Listen check beat the DC. If you beat the DC by 10 more than the opponents did, you get a surprise round.