Does D&D combat break the fantasy?

[barsoomcore]

In real life, people (and animals) avoid fights -- even fights they'd expect to win -- unless they have quite a bit to gain (or quite a bit to lose).

Well, okay, but we're quite clearly not talking about real life. What happens in real life is beside the point. At least when you're playing D&D, it is. Is my point.

Under either system, our hero can mow down hordes of scrubs, but he'll react quite differently to a hold-up in one versus the other.

Sure, and there's lots of different ways to model this. Pick the one that reflects the style of campaign you wish to run.

One consideration that hasn't been brought up is that there's a degree of certainty a player of a game needs in order to enjoy the game. That is, not everybody appreciates the same level of random chance interfering with their actions and results. How much fun is a game where you might die any second?

Potentially tons, of course, especially if you're playing CoC or Paranoia. But not everyone enjoys those games.

The features of hit points that you describe are advantages to many people, I suspect. It's the predictability itself that makes them enjoy the game. It's what allows them to scheme and plan and try to bring those plans to fruition. Which for many players is part of the fun of the game, and something that makes game play more fun than real life often is (where you don't even know what system the DM's using, to say nothing of how many hit points you have left).

And let's keep in mind that if you've got 90 hit points, and I know you've got 90 hit points, and I'm looking confident in my ability to hold you at bay with JUST THIS SPEAR -- maybe you ought to re-evaluate how confident you are that you can take those 10 spear thrusts. At least from me, holding JUST THIS SPEAR, right now.

If you play on Barsoom, you'd better, that's all I can say.

 

[Victim]

Wrong. 90 HP lets you expect to take 20 spear thrusts from an average joe. That's not the same thing as 20 spear thrusts from an elite fighter with an enchanted weapon.

For example, average damage from a Greatsword is about 7. But average damage from a half orc from the wilds with additional combat training using his favorite kind of weapon could be 18 without even a magic weapon. (fighter 4 - weapon spec: greatsword, barbarian 1, 18 STR, raging)

Special individuals and their signature gear matter.

 

[hong]

Sure, and there's lots of different ways to model this. Pick the one that reflects the style of campaign you wish to run.

But see, mmadsen doesn't actually run a campaign, or in fact play 3E at all, and so your suggestion is orthogonal to the direction of his schtick.

One consideration that hasn't been brought up is that there's a degree of certainty a player of a game needs in order to enjoy the game. That is, not everybody appreciates the same level of random chance interfering with their actions and results. How much fun is a game where you might die any second?

Potentially tons, of course, especially if you're playing CoC or Paranoia. But not everyone enjoys those games.

Heh. We had a couple of sessions a few months back, where we got our butts kicked multiple times by a derro necromancer, her pumped-up death slaad companion, and her summoned hordes of undead. While it was great fun while it lasted, we were very happy the next time just to wander the land and beat up monsters with CRs 6 lower than our level.

 

[hong]

Wrong. 90 HP lets you expect to take 20 spear thrusts from an average joe. That's not the same thing as 20 spear thrusts from an elite fighter with an enchanted weapon.

For example, average damage from a Greatsword is about 7. But average damage from a half orc from the wilds with additional combat training using his favorite kind of weapon could be 18 without even a magic weapon. (fighter 4 - weapon spec: greatsword, barbarian 1, 18 STR, raging)

Special individuals and their signature gear matter.

Yes, well, I think that was the point Barsoomcore was making. If someone knows you have 90 hit points, and is still confident they can take you, it might behoove you to take them seriously.

 

[barsoomcore]

your suggestion is orthogonal to the direction of his schtick.

I prefer orthogonancy, actually. I like watching skeletons bump into each other.

While it was great fun while it lasted, we were very happy the next time just to wander the land and beat up monsters with CRs 6 lower than our level.

Amen, brother.

hong also insisted:
If someone knows you have 90 hit points, and is still confident they can take you, it might behoove you to take them seriously.

How does one get behooved, actually? I'm not sure if I've been doing it properly.

If you know what I mean. And I think you do.

 

[scarymonkey]

I just found this thread by Ryan Dancey on why hit points suck -

http://www.gamingreport.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=31

There's a lot of interesting thoughts on the subject.

 

[hong]

How does one get behooved, actually? I'm not sure if I've been doing it properly.

It's like being defenestrated, but starting at the bottom.


Hong "or is that dehooved?" Ooi

 

[IceBear]

Its just this sort of thinking that causes unrealistic actions to occur in the game. If someone had the drop on you with a crossbow and you knew he would shoot you before you could possibly get to him, would you attack him? But in the game, you would probably attack without too much concern as long as you have more than 10 hps. This metagame thinking is due to the lack of an instakill threat in every combat.

Yes, this sort of thing could lead to more pc deaths. Or maybe it would encourage pc's to try other ways of overcoming obstacles rather than just trying to kill everybody.

The thing I love about my players is they will roleplay the situation exactly like real life. Fighter has 50hp, but a 1st level warrior has a crossbow on him - he treats it like one shot will kill him

That said, I DO use the optional rule in the DMG where 3 natural 20s in a row equals instant death, just to make sure that the PCs are aware that they can't take their 100s of hitpoints for granted.

I might also use the D20 Modern Massive Damage rules too, but with D&D it's so much easier to inflict large amounts of damage that this might lead to too many PC deaths

IceBear

 

[mmadsen]

Wrong. 90 HP lets you expect to take 20 spear thrusts from an average joe. That's not the same thing as 20 spear thrusts from an elite fighter with an enchanted weapon.

I'm not sure how I'm wrong, since that is what I meant. If you scale up Damage to match increased Hit Points, the two cancel each other out. Obviously. When it comes time to mow down scrubs though, the extra Hit Points matter. They're one of the main ways high-level Fighters are bad ass.

But boosting Hit Points isn't the one and only way to make characters bad ass. If you want players (and thus characters) to know they have no chance of losing to lesser foes -- and thus no chance of beating greater foes either -- then Hit Points achieve that. If you want characters to only fight when it's worth some small risk, then you don't want a Hit Point system (especially not one with rampant healing).

Different combat models encourage different choices.

 

[hong]

But boosting Hit Points isn't the one and only way to make characters bad ass. If you want players (and thus characters) to know they have no chance of losing to lesser foes -- and thus no chance of beating greater foes either -- then Hit Points achieve that. If you want characters to only fight when it's worth some small risk, then you don't want a Hit Point system (especially not one with rampant healing).

Please to stop prattling on about an issue on which you have no direct knowledge.

1) It isn't a choice of "this fight is trivial" vs "this fight is deadly". Challenges can span the whole spectrum from insignificant to unsurmountable. Low-level characters can and do defeat higher-level ones regularly, they just have to work harder.

2) Healing is not "rampant", because even high-level clerics will run out of spells eventually, especially if the player wants to be anything more than just a medic. At the mid-levels, running out of cure spells in the middle of a session is a very real prospect, unless you only have one or two fights per session. In fact, reducing the need to retreat and heal up was one of the prime motivations behind my using VP/WP in my campaign.

3) Healing up after a fight doesn't negate the risk of dying in one fight. This (nearly) happened to two people in my last session, when the 7th level party got jumped by three fiendish girallons. Two full attacks with rends is quite sufficient to take someone from full hit points to dead in one round.