Does D&D even have a component of "midieval" anymore?

[Celebrim]

Reading through the thread I'm increasingly deciding that the real question ought to be, "Do people even want D&D to have a medieval component anymore?"

Alot of people are considering modernisms that are not explicit in the text as preferrable to the magical/medieval assumptions. This may say alot about D&D's changing audience, but I'm not sure how much it actually says about D&D.

 

[gizmo33]

The fear and uncertainty that came with the Black Plague would be removed and steps that could affect the spread could be taken even if antibiotics weren't avaialble.

IMO the scariest thing about the DnD world is that the superstitions of the peasants are actually less fantastic than the stuff that really exists. A commune spell could actually make things far worse in terms of fear and panic. For example, commune reveals that the plague-bearer is a shape-shifting demon who likes to pretend to be a good cleric handing out antibiotics.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

IMO the scariest thing about the DnD world is that the superstitions of the peasants are actually less fantastic than the stuff that really exists. A commune spell could actually make things far worse in terms of fear and panic. For example, commune reveals that the plague-bearer is a shape-shifting demon who likes to pretend to be a good cleric handing out antibiotics.

Or...what if the pantheistic society has an agreement between churches * so that the churches of Torm, Lathander, etc. have to agree to allow Talona her due, either as a percentage, or a tacit agreement that they can only tend to the "fittest" members of the community (or only those members of the community who would consitute the "core" of each deity's portfolio) an agreement that is enforced by Myrkul whose portfolio also benefits.








*let's use Forgotten Realms Grey Box, even though canonically it doesn't seem to work this way...I just remember their names and portfolios really easily

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Reading through the thread I'm increasingly deciding that the real question ought to be, "Do people even want D&D to have a medieval component anymore?"

Alot of people are considering modernisms that are not explicit in the text as preferrable to the magical/medieval assumptions.

I consider the fact that Dungeons & Dragons evolved from a wargame based in the Middle Ages as the least important of its influences. There are medieval elements to the game which I like, but there are literally hundreds of medieval facts and phenomena which I think would only harm the game if we tried to shoehorn them in.

 

[Hussar]

On the point about disease:

As Prince of Happiness points out, diseases usually have some sort of patron diety in most pantheons. Gods intervening in the affairs of other gods tends to go very badly. The result of Divination could easily turn up something like this:

Cleric- What is causing this plague?
Spiritual Call in Center - The breath of Xlignlint, god of disease.

As Celebrim points out, there is no real reason to assume that germs exist in a DND universe. Vapours could easily be causing disease.

 

[Mighty Veil]

> Does D&D even have a component of "midieval" anymore?

Did you mean, does D&D have much of a Euro-centric feel to it?
Unfortunately no.

 

[Hussar]

Why unfortunately?

I've never understood why non-human races should have cultures which are directly analogous to historical human cultures. Never mind human races which have none of the same historical backgrounds that ours do should have Eurocentric histories. I mean, of all the people in the world today, only a very small fraction actually have that. Why should entire planets have that?

Other than a lack of imagination of course.

 

[Celebrim]

Other than a lack of imagination of course.

Ahhh... yes. Of course. When in doubt, or most especially when you aren't in doubt but don't want to say it, bring out the old ad hominem attack.

I suspect the poster was pointing out that dwarves and elves and fairies and fauns and centaurs and the rest are products of European culture and myth, and that people who want to explore that specifically aren't being supported.

I've never understood why non-human races should have cultures which are directly analogous to historical human cultures.

Because they aren't non-human races. None of the core PC races are non-human. They are all basically human, right down to the presumed ability to interbreed, with only the slightest variation. Biologically and culturally, they are basically human. And they are all descendent from a particular set of myths. To get something that isn't human, it needs to be distinctively different from humanity in its biology and mythic tradtion. Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits, not so much.

Never mind human races which have none of the same historical backgrounds that ours do should have Eurocentric histories.

Well, I suppose that the mythic races of non-European cultures would likely have non-Eurocentric histories.

I mean, of all the people in the world today, only a very small fraction actually have that. Why should entire planets have that?

A celebrated sci-fi author once said of JRRT's works, than within them a single man had created the equivalent of an entire nation's body of work. The problem with creating aliens that have a culture that isn't just in fact a particular human cultural tradition scaled up to become a racial trait of an entire species is that it involves an act of creativity that is equivalent to that of an entire history of a people. In fact, to feel truly authentic, it would have to be equivalent to the entire history of many peoples. And moreover, it would have to be an act of primary creativity which even JRRT's works could not claim, since they were clearly deriative of a particular European culture.

So, yes, it is ridiculous that an entire race should be portrayed by a single narrow cultural mold that is within the range of human cultural possibilities, and it is even more ridiculous for a race to be portrayed by a single personality type that is within the range of human possibilities. Classic examples of this would be Klingons and Kender. But, they you have it. It is never going to be any other way. Every race in science fiction and fantasy is guilty of this unreality, for the good reason that its impossible to do enough work to create a race which is not (and likely incomprehensible except by a lifetime of study even if it were).

 

[Hairfoot]

To that, I would add that the historic basis for dwarves, gnomes, elves, halflings and such is European folklore, in which they are not comprehensible human-like creatures, but behave more like the terrifying beasties in modern "alien abduction" stories.

Dwarves also have chicken's feet, if I recall correctly.

 

[The Human Target]

I'd like to say a few things.

One, any medieval trappings DnD still has are surface deep.

Two, while I like sword fights and taverns as much as the next bloke, I'm glad DnD isn't a more historically based game.

Third, say what you will about 3E and its so called "dungeon punk" artistic flavor, but if I never ever see a DnD drawing full of people in hose/leggings and Robin Hood style hats (with jaunty feathers) all the spiky shields and leather straps will have been worth it.