Does D&D require healing magic? And is that a good thing?

[Celebrim]

I personally like the extra combats in D&D. I've played in heavy role playing games..even a full Cthulhu campaign and it really wasn't my style of play.

Well, I wouldn't personally list CoC as a RP heavy game system. Most horror games, at least the ones I've played (CoC, Chill 2nd Edition) are geared more to 'problem solvers' than 'method actors' or other sorts of pure role players. That's not to say that I haven't done RP in those systems (I have), or even that good RP doesn't help solve problems (because in my experience it does), but just that a gamer that was looking for an RP campaign heavy on the inter-personal drama might not be finding it in CoC especially whereas the sort of gamer that was a problem solver (the sort that likes traps, puzzles, and riddles in D&D) almost certainly would.

I personally think that VtM as it was written seemed intended to be an RP centered, RP driven game, but in my experience it didn't actually end up that way necessarily. It did have mechanics geared specifically to RP, and relatively little time was spent on its combat system. But in practice, I found it normally played something more like the Matrix movies (violent Superheroes in black leather) than an actual character driven drama. Again, I return to my assertion that how much RP you have is a factor of the group and not the game. As an example in the opposite direction, I've heard it reported that many super-heroes groups often end up in high melodrama RP centered games, if not despite the fact that supers games tend to have highly detailed combat systems then in fact because running such math intensive and complex combats is such a chore that it winnows out all the groups looking for tactical combat heavy gaming.

If I may throw out an assertion likely to attract alot of flames from the knee-jerkers out there, I personally think D&D is a better more flexible system for accomodating groups of just about any style of play than just about any system that is out there and that this is precisely the secret of D&D's success. Just because it was first was no gaurantee that it would stay the industry leader. Lots of things come first and end up second. But the reason it stayed first (among others I could name), is that if you want to play a combat heavy game - D&D (famously) accomodates you. If you want to play an RP heavy game - D&D accomodates you by virtue of being rules light enough from an RP side that nothing gets in the way. If you want to switch back and forth between those styles, its no big deal. Alot of systems out there just can't support both as easily, either because the combat is too deadly (anything going for 'realism' tends to result in this) or the combat system to arduous to resolve or the social rules are tightly woven into the game and annoy or abstract into die rolls more often than they smooth or invigorate RP.

The one aspect of D&D rules that actually impinge on RP is alignment, and this seems to bother some people. It doesn't bother me, and I have an infamously low regard for the sort of people who are bothered by D&D's alignment system, so I won't go thier and thread derail, but a rather large number of groups have happily thrown alignment out of the D&D game with what I presume are few ill effects. So, in short, I don't think there is anything in the D&D game that prevents you from playing whatever sort of game you want, with the possible exception of 'realistic'.

And that brings us back to D&D's prolific healing, the whole point of which is to make D&D combats as unrealistic as possible. The reason of course is that realistic combat has many potentially long term negative consequences which more or less wreck a person's ability to continue in top fighting form for a very long time. Healing is there to provide a 'get out of the hospital free' card to the player, so that not only can he get back into participating in the story but he doesn't have to dispose of the character and get a new one. So long as you have the goal of getting players back into the story as quickly as possible and disposing of characters as little as possible, you are going to need some equivalent mechanism. It just so happens that in D&D, it's healing.

 

[HellHound]

My thought is that the game does -not- require healing magic.

We successfully ran a rogue-based campaign that had no clerics, healers, druids, or even a bard with cure light wounds. It just means you have to reach out beyond the standard 'comfort box' of classic D&D and run and play a game where your hit points aren't the thing that keep you alive, but your wits and status.

 

[I'm A Banana]

No, the game does not require it.

But healing magic is a valid, useful, and well-treaded strategy, nonetheless.

 

[Celebrim]

It just means you have to reach out beyond the standard 'comfort box' of classic D&D and run and play a game where your hit points aren't the thing that keep you alive, but your wits and status.

To which I would add, as a notorious former 'thief', that the players wits was about all that a person who played a rogue in earlier editions had going for them given how little raw power was to be found in being a thief at higher levels compared to any other class. You didn't have much choice but to not rely on your hit points in earlier systems, whether or not healing was available.

But yes, I agree that this is a good point. It is possible to play D&D in a way in which hit points don't matter much, in which case healing is rendered unimportant by the same margin.

 

[Ipissimus]

I agree with Celebrim here for most points, but i think I have a few more to add.

RP vs. combat in my experience comes down to the people sitting around your table. If the players sit down and yell 'a'right! Let's kick some ass!', they're probably not expecting long, deep, discussions with various NPCs on the meaning of life. This is fine, both styles are enjoyable in different ways.

As to giving Clerics the job of medic there's a very good reason for this. Emirikol's friend got it right in some ways but came at it from the wrong direction. Healing didn't come up as something for Clerics to do, Clerics came up as a venue for healing to enter the game. It's very important, more important than any other aspect of a PC class, that the player has something to do. In DnD, fighters soak damage, Wizards deal out damage, Thieves avoid damage and Clerics fix the inevitable damage that is incurred but you see this principle in all of the other successful RPGs on the market.

White Wolf does it with VtM, Werewolf and Mage. Vampires need to feed, Werewolves deal with spirits and Mages deal with the Abyss. Promethean is the odd one out here, and one reason I'm not that fond of it is that the Created don't seem to have a core job.

Shadowrun is another good example. Riggers drive, Samurai fight, Shamans and Mages deal with magic stuff, Deckers deal with the Matrix.

Stepping into any of these roles, the player knows what they are meant to be doing, it is, in effect, a metagame hook for the player to jump in and get involved.

If you want another way of doing things, look outside DnD. Rolemaster, WoD, Palladium, Tri-Stat and a host of others do things differently and are just as good as DnD. Are they better? Better is a very subjective thing. Do they present more detailed combat and injuries? Most of them, yes. Are they more complex? Most of them, yes. Some few manage a good mix of detail vs. simplicity (Shadowrun and WoD, in my opinion).

But at the core, DnD is a game of heroics. Rules for getting your limbs cut off have no place in the core DnD game because this would make players fearful of combat. Characters represent an investment of the player's time, energy, love and lazyness (losing the old character means creating a new one... ), having them deformed and mutilated in the rare occurances that already exist in the DnD game through illness, poison and magic is bad enough already. Healing encourages players to be daring... after all, most of the problems they encounter can be fixed, even death can be fixed.

If you want to do things differently and still use DnD, Unearthed Arcana has the very cool Vitality/Wound system and armour as DR. I've used both to the general acclaim of my players, who actually find knowing when they've actually been hit vs. when they're dodging a blow or getting tired to help their suspension of disbelief. On the other hand, I've also had great success transplanting healing into other genres where healing isn't generally easy to come to (medipacks that act like clerics the PCs can carry in d20 Future were VERY successful).

 

[Stalker0]

I think at lower levels a party can get away with little healing magic. At that point AC and attack bonuses are somewhat comparitive, and a fighter with good armor can walk out of a battle without a scratch. But by high level, attack bonuses have outstripped AC, so you will get hit a lot and therefore require lots of healing.

Now there are mechanics to reduce the aftercombat need for healing (reserve points come to mind). But taking away the in combat big healing spells would greatly change the game, and I think for little benefit.

 

[Piratecat]

I'll jump in with one final comment about controversial posts:

Creating a provocative thread doesn't necessarily mean that someone is a troll.

Bugaboo used to do the same thing. If the thread is meant to be thought-provoking and not start heated emotional arguments, that's okay. Either participate in the thread or don't. Report the thread if you're unsure. But YOU - yes, you who's reading this - have a huge say in whether a thread sinks or swims. Provocative threads can turn into absolutely fascinating discussions if people post interesting insights. Try to make that be what happens.

But for people who post those provocative threads, please be very aware of your language. Biasing the discussion by using emotionally loaded words or premises can really backfire. We'd rather not have that.

Okay, back to the thread. Drop any of us an email to discuss this further.

- Piratecat

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

American Heritage Dictionary -

role-play·ing (rōl'plā'ĭng)
n.
1. Psychology: A therapeutic technique, designed to reduce conflict in social situations, in which participants act out particular behavioral roles in order to expand their awareness of differing points of view.
2. An instance or situation in which one deliberately acts out or assumes a particular character or role.

D&D is as much a role-playing game as any other. Just because a player doesn't talk in character, have conversations with NPCs or have a deeply understood set of motivations does not mean someone isn't role playing. In a combat focused game, they players are assuming a role as a combatant and are making deliberate decisions about what that character will do, or attempt to do. Maybe there is less "depth" to the roleplaying in these situations, but they are still role-playing.

Sure, by reading the D&D books, you understand the mechanics of the combat more than anything else, but that is because that can be described by rules clearly, without stifling creativity. How a particular player should have their character behave is completely open and flexible beacuse is isn't codified in the rules, and I prefer it that way.

Regarding the change in 3e that allowed for spontaneous casting of healing spells, I think it has opened up the game to things other than combat by allowing the cleric to prepare spells other than healing, but should healing become necessary, it is still available. In addition, 3e allows for healing by resting that scales with level. My recollection is that 2e and earlier just gave a flat 1-3 HP regained per day. At higher levels resting was useless and healing magic was the only real way to regain HP, with 3e there are more viable options.

 

[Emirikol]

And that brings us back to D&D's prolific healing, the whole point of which is to make D&D combats as unrealistic as possible. The reason of course is that realistic combat has many potentially long term negative consequences which more or less wreck a person's ability to continue in top fighting form for a very long time. Healing is there to provide a 'get out of the hospital free' card to the player, so that not only can he get back into participating in the story but he doesn't have to dispose of the character and get a new one. So long as you have the goal of getting players back into the story as quickly as possible and disposing of characters as little as possible, you are going to need some equivalent mechanism. It just so happens that in D&D, it's healing.

Excellent points. It makes me believe that healing magic is absolutely essential to "role playing" in D&D (sans the occasional Rogue type of game that the other poster describes).

Since massive amounts of combat are going to occur in D&D anyways, it's best that people are able to get back to "role playing health" as soon as possible.

jh

 

[Remathilis]

Excellent points. It makes me believe that healing magic is absolutely essential to "role playing" in D&D (sans the occasional Rogue type of game that the other poster describes).

Since massive amounts of combat are going to occur in D&D anyways, it's best that people are able to get back to "role playing health" as soon as possible.

jh

Which was also my theory behind the multitude of status-removal spells (remove paralysis, remove disease, neutralize poison, remove blindness/deafness, and raise dead). Its the price you pay for a game where your heroes spend long treks of time in the wilderness surrounded by dens of powerful monsters. The stretch on realism these spells create is by far outweighed by the ability to ignore weeks and months of recovery time to heal hp and status ailments.