Does Dagger get Weapon Finesse for free?

[vic20]

A player in my group is interpreting the wording of the dagger description (PHB page100) as intending that the weapon allows for Weapon Finesse feat for free. He says that there was a thread that clarified this on this very forum some time ago, but I don't have access to the Search function, so I can't find it.

He said that he and I discussed this about a year ago when he made the character, which I vaguely remember, and I apparently allowed it at the time. It came up because I'm entering the pcs into DMGenie right now, which has triggered a sort of 'character sheet audit' as I type stuff in from my char sheet copies.

In any case, thanks for your sage wisdom.

-Vic20

 

[hong]

Your player is wrong.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think you don't get Weapon Finesse for free, not even for Unarmed Strike, which IMHO would make very sense specifically for touch attacks by spellcasters. Unfortunately you have to buy the Feat or otherwise keep on using the Strtngth modifier.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Dagger: The dagger is a common seconday weapon. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat (see page 86) to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a dagger.

The description does not state or even imply that you get the feat for free. It merely says that the dagger is finessable.

Your player is interpreting it from a very liberal (i.e., munchkin) point-of-view.

 

[Bastoche]

In a word no. No free feat for Mr. Munch Munch...

 

[Chacal]

I think you don't get Weapon Finesse for free, not even for Unarmed Strike, which IMHO would make very sense specifically for touch attacks by spellcasters. Unfortunately you have to buy the Feat or otherwise keep on using the Strtngth modifier.

Are arcane spellcasters proficient with unarmed strike ?

Chacal

 

[Pax]

Are arcane spellcasters proficient with unarmed strike ?

Chacal

I forget where I read it, but: Unarmed strikes are Simple weapons. Note, that means BASIC unarmed strikes ... not IMPROVED unarmed strikes.

Plus, any DM who would penalise a spellcaster for nonproficiency when using a TOUCH spell, needs to be kicked.

Hard.

 

[Uruush]

The description does not state or even imply that you get the feat for free. It merely says that the dagger is finessable.

Your player is interpreting it from a very liberal (i.e., munchkin) point-of-view.

I'm the munchkin in question here. (My characters are generally so un-min/max'd it's not funny.) It was a thread on EnWorld that confirmed to me my interpretation. My character has been using the dagger even though he's proficient with longswords because it fit his concept, not for the finesse. I would have built my character with less Wisdom and Charisma if I was trying to take advantage of the rules. I think the PHB is more than confusing on this matter. Why, only for the dagger does it read:

"You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a dagger."

Why does it not state the above for the Punch Dagger, or for the Lt. Mace, Sickle, Handaxe, Lt Pick, Sap or Shortsword? Those are light weapons too. I certainly don't feel like I'm interpreting this liberally; I just read it and thought, "huh, daggers got finesse, them other weapons you need to buy the feat for." The thread which confirmed my interpretation was someone asking whether the built-in finesse of the dagger worked for small characters too, since they were only one size bigger than tiny daggers.

It sound like my character is illegal, but the PHB didn't make it easy on me...

 

[Li Shenron]

Well, I have always wondered why Strength plays a better role than Dexterity when delivering a touch attack. I thought the PHB said that Str mod to melee attacks represent your skillness in wielding and controlling a weapon because of its weight...

...but this is just an insignificant rant

 

[Petrosian]

[/B][/QUOTE]

"You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a dagger."

Read simply for what it sayd, this is saying you CAN use the weapon finesse feat for the dagger. This is not saying you GET the weapon finesse feat for the dagger.

read simply what is said and don't "divine" or "derive" out of it what is not there.

Why does it not state the above for the Punch Dagger, or for the Lt. Mace, Sickle, Handaxe, Lt Pick, Sap or Shortsword? Those are light weapons too.

Probably because someone decided they wated to highlight this feature. possibly because, as tiny, the dagger works as such for any PC sized race, whereas the light mace will only work with finesse for some.

Its really hard to divine why they did not say it elsewhere. But, that understanding is not really necessary. After all, all they said was that you could use the weapon finesse feat... not that you got the weapon finesse feat.

I certainly don't feel like I'm interpreting this liberally; I just read it and thought, "huh, daggers got finesse, them other weapons you need to buy the feat for."

Adding the word "got" where it was never present, is at best light a "liberal" reading.

The thread which confirmed my interpretation was someone asking whether the built-in finesse of the dagger worked for small characters too, since they were only one size bigger than tiny daggers.

And thus you learn the true value of threads on rules. you get exactly what you pay for.