Does DnD encourage racist thinking?

[johnsemlak]

My take on this topic:

It's useful to discuss this topic, as it does have potentially important implications in our own world.

My personal opinion is that fantasy is just that, fantasy. A lot of things exist in fantasy that I don't believe exist in real life--evil, magic, multiple dieties, the supernatural, undead, 9 hells, Olympus, .... In particular, fantasy worlds allow absolute evil to exist. In addition, fantasy often contains humanoid races with evil tendancies.

The potential racism of D&D doesn't bother me as much as the concept of evil in D&D. Not so much that it bothers me, but certainly it conflicts with my views on the real world.

The key is to separate this fantasy from reality, which fantasy should do by definition. But it's good to be aware of the issues at stake. I think the mere fact that this discussion is taking place is a very positive sign that we as D&D players are taking trying not to allow D&D stereotypes to be transferred into the real world.

On a side note, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the issue of Tolkien's alledged anti-semitism in his portrayal of dwarves.

Here's a good article about it.

 

[RSKennan]

While I don't think that the portrayal of D&D races (as different species) is racist, parts of me wonder at the thought processes of many of the fantasy genre's writer/creators. It is true that a great many fantasy and science fiction races are extreme parodies of human traits. I think that drawing these stereotypes large helps to point out how silly they are, as was noted by Orias, but I also feel that they can sometimes serve as an excuse to symbolically bash "undesirable" human traits. There is a reason these races are "humanoid" after all. For me, as long as they are treated as "other species" assigning traits to them for the sake of a game isn't offensive.

What I do have a problem with is when a designer deliberately takes a human culture and plops it into the framework of D&D, and puts an evil race into the "niche" of a real world race. That is most certainly ignorant and racist. I've seen it time and time again, and though it might be a simple case of the designer being too unimaginitive to create a realistic culture for the species (orcs or what have you), it still rubs me the wrong way. If you are going to have a direct translation of a real world culture (not merely a human trait- a whole culture, complete with customs) in a mass-market game, at least make them humans!

Don't get me wrong, there are going to be unavoidable parellels between fantasy races and real world peoples, since a culture is shaped by its history, and certain themes (opression, war, peace, prosperity, etc) crop up in any world. Of course it's natural to look to how real people have reacted to these events when considering their effects on a fantasy world.

So I guess my opinion on the matter walks a fine line.

An addendum: In a multiverse where a lion can be crossed with an eagle, or a dragon can mate with a human, there is no reason to think that any of the races are members of the same species or even genus. I think it's more interesting to think that they aren't , and their interbreeding is facilitated by magic.

The parents of the first centaurs must have been a cute couple

 

[Celtavian]

Re

D&D is not racist. Racism is not just prejudice, which many people are stating here. Racism is the use of power to inflict tyranny and suffering upon other people due to race.

Racists may create reasons why they are racist, but if they have no power to inflict their opinions on others, then there is no racism, just prejudice.

D&D would only be racist if say the Elves had the humans enslaved because they were human. Then it would be teaching racism.

There are few areas on FR that are racist such as Hillsfar, but in most other places the people might be prejudice, but there is no actual racism as the part their laws.

D&D is racially diverse and teaches that subtly. We Americans are taught that any kind of acknowledgement of racial traits is bad due to our history, so I can see why you might see rules supported racial differences as bad.

 

[Sanackranib]

learned behavior

I think that depends more on the game the DM is running than the core rulebooks.

I've noticed that games which have many grey areas between good and evil often also have races be different things thatn their streotypes.

In games that are basically "whack the Orc", all Orcs seem to be evil, and all elves seem to be opposed by them,

Rav

Its up to the creative DM to chalange the steriotypes. My players tend to enjoy the variety when I do, it keeps the game fresh and keeps them guessing.

 

[Zappo]

Re: Re: Does DnD encourage racist thinking?

Also, elves and dwarves aren't merely different races, they are different *species*.

Ok, so D&D has speciesism.

Really, I don't think you can talk about racism in D&D when the opposite sides are actually different species (and IMNSHO, the crossbreeding argument simpy doesn't work in D&D). If you stereotype a D&D race as evil, you could very well be right. There are spells which objectively determine whether someone is evil after all, and you can provide factual proof conferming your assertion. So I go around saying that illithids are evil, want to enslave everyone, are beyond redemption, and should all be killed for the good of the world - where's the racism if that's an objective truth? More precisely, it would be racism, without the negative connotation associated to it.

In a way, the big difference between D&D and the real world is that in D&D you can have "correct racism" of a sort.

 

[Wicht]

We won't be able to agree on whether there is racism in DnD until we can agree on what Racism is.

 

[Desdichado]

Yeah, well at the first of this century, a lot of anthropologists thought the various human races were different species as well. I don't think the application of real world definitions of race and species "leads to tears." Especially when I'm the one calling out the casual and thoughtless use of the terms.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Or JD, you could just be being pedantic. Crossbreeding in a fantasy world is just as well defined by "it's magic" as anything else. That doesn't require any consideration of species and sub-species boundaries.

 

[Buttercup]

We won't be able to agree on whether there is racism in DnD until we can agree on what Racism is.

You speak for me.

I'd just like to add a few things. Harking back to the 'Moral Compass' thread, I'd like to point out that D&D does in fact encourage players to kill thinking creatures that are different from themselves and take their stuff. But claiming that this is the beginning of a slippery slope into real life racism is, to be polite, an extreme position. It's not unlike those who say that watching cartoon animals bonk each other on the head leads children to violence, or even that rap music lyrics about rape will encourage teen boys to rape their girlfriends.

The bottom line is that none of these things are whollly true, and none of them are wholly false. Let's take the violent images argument as an example. If you are a kid who has emotional problems, and your parents aren't paying attention to your needs, and you are alienated in school, and you spend most of your free time watching violent Television or playing violent computer games, then maybe, *possibly* this barrage of images would push you over the edge you've already been clinging to. If you're a reasonably well adjusted kid though, you will be unharmed just like the rest of us. The D&D/racism connection is the same. If you have a propensity to those attitudes, I suppose that D&D might *possibly* encourage you.

But that isn't the fault of D&D, just like violence perpetrated by teens isn't the fault of TV or video games. If we eliminate everything from this world that might *possibly* encourage bad behavior in someone, we'll be left with nothing but blank gray walls and silence.

 

[Desdichado]

Or JD, you could just be being pedantic. Crossbreeding in a fantasy world is just as well defined by "it's magic" as anything else. That doesn't require any consideration of species and sub-species boundaries.

I could be (and likely often am.) But I often treat pedantry with pedantry. When someone says that you can't have racism in D&D because all these guys are actually different species, they are being pedantic and needlessly obscure in order to avoid the thrust of the question. So if I treat their incorrect pedantry with correct pedantry to clear away the clutter that surrounds their answer to the question, in reality I'm focusing the topic back on the question at hand. At least, that's what I'd like to think, although in reality, it leads to tangents in the same thread more often than not.

And since when does the "magic" have anything to do with cross-breeding of races? I have yet to see anything in print to suggest that half-orcs or half-elves are the result of anything other than normal biological processes. A lot of folks throw that up as evidence of something or another, but since it's never appeared in print anywhere that I know of, I consider it specious and irrelevent.

Since, IMO, "magical breeding" is a red hering, and claiming that orcs, etc. aren't races and therefore not subject to racism is incorrect, illogical and irrelevant anyway (who cares if you call it racism or specism anyway -- isn't it exactly the same behavior? Besides, as I pointed out earlier, at the beginning of this century, most anthropologists believed that the various human races were in fact seperate species.) I think that "standard" D&D does indeed encourage racism against orcs, goblins, etc. However, since there's no real orcs, goblins, etc. around to be offended by this racism, I don't see what the harm is. It's up to any given group to decide if they are comfortable or not with allowing racism -- even against fictional races -- in their game.