Does Having 3 Core Books Hurt The Game?

[Arkhandus]

No. The D&D Basic Game is for new people who aren't sure they want to spend the extra money on the full game yet.

I don't think a 1-core-book system will ever have enough depth, clarity, and long-term use to be worth my while.

I got the Shadowrun 3rd Edition book, for instance, but there's a lot of vagueness in the rules and descriptions, so there's a lot that's hard to figure out the use/intended interpretation of. It also doesn't have much in the way of options for each section; there isn't much description for the skills, there are only a modest number of spells (and they have very barebones descriptions), there's only a moderate amount of cyberware to choose from (and again with very barebones, sometimes unclear or confusing descriptions), and a limited selection of other gear. The Matrix, cyberdecks, and Matrix combat/programs are fairly short and limited in detail. Spirits and other critters have even more minimalist detail, which is a shame.

I still love SR3, but I would have to buy a couple of additional books before I could make much, if any, use of it (at present the only other book I have is the New Seattle sourcebook; I really need to get a few more books before I even consider running or playing a Shadowrun campaign). It's really interesting to start with, but it's less directly conducive to making characters and playing the game than a D&D Player's Handbook. Though it does have some GM material as well, it's also very minimal.

 

[Jack Morgan]

I think a good boxed set is the best way to go. With good, evocative cover art that shows what you are going to be doing- you know like fighting a dragon for it's treasure...
Also, i think the "Advanced" label was, by design or not, one of the smartest marketing moves in the history of RPGs. We had the basic box in the late 70's, but we could not wait to go "Advanced" and we bought the books as they came out. We were 13 and the idea of playing a "Basic" game when there was an "Advanced" game available was just unthinkable- after all we weren't babies. Never underestimate the adolescents desire to appear more grown up.
If i were in charge of WoTC marketing I would ressurrect the Basic/advanced paradigm with 4e.

 

[Li Shenron]

Only one book, the PHB, is required to play.

3 books are required for DMing.

I am in favor of this layout, it means that it takes someone a little more motivated to pick up the DM role As for "new/fresh blood" (horrible expression, by the way), every single person I've played with was introduced to the game by someone else who already played, either an older brother/relative or a friend. That's IMHO always the best way to carry on the hobby...

 

[Flynn]

Seeing how successful 3E and v3.5 have been, I'd have to say that having three core books has not hurt the game at all. There are more people that pay 3E/v3.5 than I've seen roleplaying in a long time. There may be some who say three books is bad, but it can't be that bad, considering how widely played that D&D is. Come to think of it, the three core book model has been around since at least 1st Edition, so this game becoming the world's most popular RPG has wrestled with this model since Day One, essentially, and "a three book core" has been quite successful.

Just A Thought,
Flynn

 

[WayneLigon]

I think it does hurt. A friend of mine has a 17-year-old son. He and his friends want to be gamers but frankly the cost of d20 is an obstacle to some of them; even a $35.00 PHB is a significant chunk of money for them given that it's only a part of what they do for fun. Paintball, dates, video games, etc ... D&D has to compete with all that for the teenaged-boy-dollar. Most of them want to GM as well, and having the complete game in one book would go a long way towards increasing the number of gamers.

If they can do Star Wars Saga as one book, then why not D&D?

 

[dmccoy1693]

If they can do Star Wars Saga as one book, then why not D&D?

QFT, in under 300 pages no less.

 

[Ron]

[...]
I don't think a 1-core-book system will ever have enough depth, clarity, and long-term use to be worth my while.
[...]

You certainly are not familiar with games such as Call of Cthulhu or HERO. Even Wizards has showed us that they can fit a complete d20 game in a single volume, as they have done with d20 Modern, Star Wars, and The Wheel of Time. The three books system is basically a lucrative tradition.

 

[Ron]

For everyone who DOESN'T think the three-book model is a problem, let me know the last time you bought a game that WASN'T an RPG that REQUIRED:

1. A person with 'more experience' or 'more stuff' than you to participate in the game.
2. Material you are not given in the package you purchased (in this case, dice).
3. A book that was more than 20 pages long.

Number one is a real deal-killer, which essentially says "If you don't know a gamer, you can't be a gamer." Number two is an annoyance at best, an evening-killer at worst ("I bought this new game and thought we could try it out, but it says we don't have what we need to play it - what a rip off!"). Number three is intimidating to a new player, although not strictly bad.

Red Box D&D was once widely available at toy stores. Then the 'box' form was dropped in favor of a 'book' (the otherwise lovely Rules Cyclopaedia) and the line was eventually discontinued. D&D moved from the toy stores and into specialist stores and, at best, general bookstores. Much flap is made about the satanism and suicide scares pushing D&D into these markets - but if so, why didn't other RPGs take its place (and take its market primacy in the process)? What RPGs would those be, with convenient, accessible boxed sets that could have hoped to do so? None?

Nintendo had to package the original NES with a toy robot (which then went basically unused) because they knew, above all, they had to get it on the shelves in toy stores and general stores like WalMart. The NES essentially resurrected the dead console market and became the bestselling unit of its time.

Wizards' own Pokemon Jr. RPG belatedly got on the Wal-Mart shelves - and promptly outsold D&D. But the line wasn't continued because of the license being pulled and the lessons ignored; it was a kiddie product, based on something distinctly ANIME - Principle forfend any lesson be drawn from THAT!

The fact is, RPGs are not just inaccessible to new players, they are ANTI-accessible to new players. That they attract anyone new at all is nigh-miraculous and speaks to the potential they still have.

I agree entirely. I had a hard time convincing my dad to buy me AD&D back in 1983. He argued that three large books and a set of dice not only was expensive but, also, sounded too much for a game. He was more inclined to buy me basic and expert boxes, which he found more of his liking, exactly because looked to him like a game.

Considering how unnecessarily complicated were AD&D rules at that time and how poorly I mastered them, perhaps my choice was not wise after all. Fact is that today I am willing to run a game with basic and expert but not with AD&D. Perhps my dad, who have no interest in gaming at all, knew better.

 

[Jack Morgan]

I notice a lot of posts saying that you only need the PHB to 'play'. This is a false dichotomy. To people outside the hobby sitting down at the table and rolling dice is playing- regardless of which side of the screen you're sitting on. The fact that you need at least two books to really do this (PHB and the MM) is definitely a bar to entry.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

And yes, one of the reasons I'm saying this (besides the fact that I think it would make good business-sense) is self-serving -- even though I'm an "experienced and/or dedicated" gamer, I've decided that I don't want the full/complicated ruleset with all its options and detail and would be perfectly satisfied by (and in fact prefer) the casual/newbie version.

Sorta like HERO did with Sidekick. A cheap (15 bucks for the revised version, 10 originally) stripped down & slightly simplified version of the rules, written with new players in mind. I can think of at least 10 different people on the HERO boards who got started with Sidekick, then after they were familiar with that, went on to the full tome, and a number of others that stayed with Sidekick (and that is just the people interested enough to go on the game boards).

And if HERO, one of the more intricate (I won't say difficult, because I don't think it is) can pull that off, surely it can be done easily for D&D.