D&D 5E Does Heroism end a frightened condition or suspend it?

ECMO3

Hero
If a PC is frightened due to cause fear or dragonfear and heroism is cast on him he is no longer frightened, that is straighforward. However, does he continue to make saves on his turn (until he successfully saves) and if the heroism spell goes down due to loss of concentration is he immediately back to frightened again?

One reason this is important is I am thinking about picking up Fey Touched feat with Heroism for my Fey Wanderer. It would actually be beneficial if the ally continues to make saves as once he is successful on a save I can turn that fear and fear or charm an enemy.

RAW I think it is suspended and he continues to roll saves.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I think that's correct.

The Spell reads: Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to being frightened.

It doesn't say anything about dispelling or nullifying an existing condition. And while, nothing is said about saves - seems like you'd get saves in the same manner as the underlying effect (usually, but not always, per round).
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If a PC is frightened due to cause fear or dragonfear and heroism is cast on him he is no longer frightened, that is straighforward. However, does he continue to make saves on his turn (until he successfully saves) and if the heroism spell goes down due to loss of concentration is he immediately back to frightened again?

One reason this is important is I am thinking about picking up Fey Touched feat with Heroism for my Fey Wanderer. It would actually be beneficial if the ally continues to make saves as once he is successful on a save I can turn that fear and fear or charm an enemy.

RAW I think it is suspended and he continues to roll saves.
There is no RAW on this really. Immunity is not defined other than as making you immune to a damage type or condition. I would rule that the frightened effect ends once the PC becomes immune to it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think that's correct.

The Spell reads: Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to being frightened.

It doesn't say anything about dispelling or nullifying an existing condition. And while, nothing is said about saves - seems like you'd get saves in the same manner as the underlying effect (usually, but not always, per round).
The issue, though, is what does immunity really mean. To me it means that the condition simply cannot exist on that PC. RAW is silent on what immunity really means, so this is a rulings situation.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
If the frightening effect is based on an ongoing spell that lasts longer than the heroism, then I'd have the frightened condition reapply itself after heroism is gone. But if it's not tied to a spell or other defined/maintained magic effect, then I would think the heroism would end the frightened condition, particularly if a save would make them immune to the fear effect for a period of time like a dragon's frightful presence. Once you're not afraid of the source, you shouldn't be able to be made afraid of the source under the same conditions as making the save.
 

ECMO3

Hero
The issue, though, is what does immunity really mean. To me it means that the condition simply cannot exist on that PC. RAW is silent on what immunity really means, so this is a rulings situation.
This is logical because if you cast a spell like cause fear or charm person on someone immune then typically they do not save, it is just a wasted spell.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This is logical because if you cast a spell like cause fear or charm person on someone immune then typically they do not save, it is just a wasted spell.
There's logic and reasoning for it to go either way, really. That's just how I would do it. @billd91 would go the other way.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
There's logic and reasoning for it to go either way, really. That's just how I would do it. @billd91 would go the other way.

I think his ruling is pretty consistent with what I said - just expanding upon it to a situation I didn't discuss.

Dragon fear is one of those things that IF you save you're then immune to it for 24 hours.

So:

If you failed your save but get the benefit of heroism? You're not frightened but if the fear effect outlasts the heroism spell (say the dragon smacks the spellcaster, spellcaster loses concentration and you have not successfully saved), you're frightened again - until you can save.

If heroism is active and you're targeted by the dragon fear? You're immune to the effect and don't have to save again (for 24 hours).

IMO Seems like the best interpretation.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think his ruling is pretty consistent with what I said - just expanding upon it to a situation I didn't discuss.

Dragon fear is one of those things that IF you save you're then immune to it for 24 hours.

So:

If you failed your save but get the benefit of heroism? You're not frightened but if the fear effect outlasts the heroism spell (say the dragon smacks the spellcaster, spellcaster loses concentration and you have not successfully saved), you're frightened again - until you can save.

If heroism is active and you're targeted by the dragon fear? You're immune to the effect and don't have to save again (for 24 hours).

IMO Seems like the best interpretation.
There is literally nothing to interpret, though, so there can't be a best or worst interpretation. There is no rule. You would rule one way and I would rule another. There are reasons that can be used to go either way, so this is simply a "make a ruling and move on" situation. :)
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
There is literally nothing to interpret, though, so there can't be a best or worst interpretation. There is no rule. You would rule one way and I would rule another. There are reasons that can be used to go either way, so this is simply a "make a ruling and move on" situation. :)

Sure there is. You are interpreting the wording of the heroism spell as it interacts with the situation. The spell doesn't say anything about ending an existing frightened condition only that it confers immunity "until the spell ends..." Thus you have to extrapolate and interpret from there - and make the best ruling you can.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Sure there is. You are interpreting the wording of the heroism spell as it interacts with the situation. The spell doesn't say anything about ending an existing frightened condition only that it confers immunity "until the spell ends..." Thus you have to extrapolate and interpret from there - and make the best ruling you can.
You're looking at the wrong thing. The key here is immunity as it is more specific than a spell. Nothing in Heroism says anything about how it interacts with immunity and immunity is silent as well. There is no RAW to interpret on this. There are only personal rulings.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
If you are immune to being frightened, an effect that merely frightens you is ended. If someone tries to apply it, you are immune. It isn't suppressed.

An effect that frightens you and also does something else isn't ended.

This is based off of a non-game-based understanding of what being immune to something means.
 

aco175

Legend
Reminds me of a story my father tells me about Viet Nam. Another soldier went on leave to Japan for a couple weeks and had malaria, but was drunk the whole time and it did not take hold until he returned and sobered up. He was 'immune' to it basically.

Not sure it answers the question, but it does show that it can have two ways.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I am on fire. I become immune to fire. Am I still on fire?

This is the rub -- does immunity mean that you are impervious to it but still subject to it or does it mean that it cannot affect you in any way. If the former -- if I can burn without burning -- then if my immunity goes away I am still on fire and deal with this. If the latter, then when I become immune, there cannot be any fire on me, so I am no longer on fire.
 

Dausuul

Legend
There are two scenarios here:
  1. You become frightened, and then someone makes you immune to fear.
  2. You become immune to fear, and then someone tries to make you frightened.
I find it very hard to imagine scenario #2 resulting in anything other than "the effect fails, end of story"--it doesn't hang around waiting to see if you lose your immunity somehow. I could go either way on scenario #1; but I like to keep my rulings as simple and consistent as possible, so I'd rule that #1 works the same way as #2. (As a bonus, that is also the option that involves the least bookkeeping.)

Thus, in my campaign, heroism will cause the frightened condition to slide off you. It's not suspended--it's gone. Even if the spell ends, it won't come back.
 


aleleg

First Post
I'm surprised nobody made any references to Calm Emotion.
"You can suppress any Effect causing a target to be Charmed or Frightened. When this spell ends, any suppressed Effect resumes, provided that its Duration has not expired in the meantime."

Also for dragons frightful presence : "If a creature's saving throw is successful or the Effect ends for it, the creature is immune to the dragon's Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours."

The general rule in 5e is " If it's not written, the simplest explanation prevail" More so if an indication from the same source book tend to specify it, why would'nt they specify it for Heroism?

So yes, it ends the condition. And gets you immune for 24 hours from that SAME dragon presence. But not from another dragon presence or a fear spell (or whatever) after the heroism wears off.

Anything else is house rule from my point of view.

At least that how I see it. As a player for 25 years and a GM for 10.
 

Voadam

Legend
I think it is ambiguous and calls for a DM ruling which can reasonably vary from table to table.

If something made you temporarily immune to being wounded I would not expect it to cure your existing wounds but to make you immune to new wounds for the duration of the effect.

I could see heroism being interpreted as having no effect on an existing frightened condition and only preventing being frightened in a new instance during the duration. I am being frightened can have a different temporal connotation than I am frightened.

I could see it interpreted differently as "being frightened" as an ongoing condition. I could see the immunity against being frightened being during the duration of the spell or immunity terminating the effect.

All three interpretations make sense to me.

DM ruling, not rules. That's 5e for you.
 

Dungeon Delver's Guide

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top