does hit point loss = damage

[lukelightning]

But what if it is a poisoned arrow? If the damage from that arrow is so abstract that it is not a "wounding shot" then it shouldn't deliver the poison.

I would say that near misses and the arrow that misses hitting you in the eye by a hairs breadth are hit point losses. Things that you haven't actually dodged, but avoided by luck and chance. Usually it's fatigue, pulled muscles, scratches, things like that, until you take the hit that drops you below 0 and runs you through.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

OK, once in a while I'll hear someone maintain that hit points don't always represent damage capacity - that when you lose hit points due to being "hit" maybe you weren't really hit, you dodged, and the loss of hit points just means that you had a close call and might not evade the next one, etc etc... As characters increase in level, they aren't neccassarily able to take more hits, they are more able to turn a lethal blow into a less serious one, yadda yadda.

It depends, really. But I went with the damage taken vs. total hp. I'm still guilty of describing things a certain way most of the time. Here's an example of one session I remember...

Me: the zombie claws your arm. Take 6 points of damage.
Player: Now I have 2 hit points... he must've ripped off the whole thing.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

But what if it is a poisoned arrow? If the damage from that arrow is so abstract that it is not a "wounding shot" then it shouldn't deliver the poison.

this is the big breakdown point for me. A contact poison effects you if it hits even if damage reduction (another redundant issue under some hp models) eliminates all the hp damage. An injury poison effects you if hit point damage is done and overcomes damage reduction.

 

[Daywalker]

But when Rowdy Roddy Piper hits the Junkyard Dog, he doesn't bleed. Yet after 5 minutes, one of them has lost all of his hitpoints and the other is declared the winner. In fact, Hacksaw Jim Duggan beat people with his signature 2x4 weapon all the time and no one ever died.

Therefore, I am lead to believe that hitpoints represent your stamina and fan base. If my PC gets hit by an orcs axe, I'm not actually dead until the DM counts to 3.

Yes... but in D&D terms, both of those men are bards, and they rolled well on Perform (Sports Entertainment) checks to achieve those results, and the otucome is predetermined regardless of fan input. The reason Duggan's 2x4 or HHH's sledgehammer never killed anyone is simple... he never actually hit anyone with it as hard as he could, because it's all an act.

However, anyone that watches wrestling and saw what happened to Owen Hart will note that an actual blow to the head is just as fatal to a high level wrestler as it would be to a zero level jobber just beginning his career.


I figure the 2x4 needs an explanation, but if we were to look from the perspective of wrestling being "real" combat and likening it to D&D, JYD and Piper are doing subdual damage to each other, so one cannot bleed whilst being dropped to zero HP and pinned.

 

[genshou]

this is the big breakdown point for me. A contact poison effects you if it hits even if damage reduction (another redundant issue under some hp models) eliminates all the hp damage. An injury poison effects you if hit point damage is done and overcomes damage reduction.

Actually, Kahuna Burger, unless I've missed a specific 3.5 change (and I've studied 3.5 DR in detail, so please correct me if I did miss something), if Damage Reduction reduces damage from an attack to 0, all special effects that rely on damage are negated as well. Examples include injury type poison and disease, energy drain, continuous bleeding properties (ala wounding), a monk's stunning/the Stunning Fist feat, strike-based confusion effects, and many others.

 

[genshou]

Yes... but in D&D terms, both of those men are bards, and they rolled well on Perform (Sports Entertainment) checks to achieve those results, and the otucome is predetermined regardless of fan input. The reason Duggan's 2x4 or HHH's sledgehammer never killed anyone is simple... he never actually hit anyone with it as hard as he could, because it's all an act.

However, anyone that watches wrestling and saw what happened to Owen Hart will note that an actual blow to the head is just as fatal to a high level wrestler as it would be to a zero level jobber just beginning his career.


I figure the 2x4 needs an explanation, but if we were to look from the perspective of wrestling being "real" combat and likening it to D&D, JYD and Piper are doing subdual damage to each other, so one cannot bleed whilst being dropped to zero HP and pinned.

Or if we're going with the d20 Modern nonlethal damage mechanic, they're beating each other senseless but other than the obvious black eyes, lost teeth, broken noses, and scrapes and bruises, they're not doing any "lethal" damage to one another.

As for explaining the Owen Hart incident with d20 Modern nonlethal damage mechanics, see this post. It's the third point I address, after the third quote block (be sure to read the quote block as well to see what I am replying to ).

 

[Aaron L]

But what if it is a poisoned arrow? If the damage from that arrow is so abstract that it is not a "wounding shot" then it shouldn't deliver the poison.

Nicks and scratches can get poison into your bloodstream quite well. Snakes dont bite that deep, after all.


"Oh, it's just a scratch."

"URK!!!!"

*THUMP*

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Nicks and scratches can get poison into your bloodstream quite well. Snakes dont bite that deep, after all.


"Oh, it's just a scratch."

"URK!!!!"

*THUMP*

a scratch is damage. The big disconnect is with the idea that a hit point loss could be represented by a complete miss.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Actually, Kahuna Burger, unless I've missed a specific 3.5 change (and I've studied 3.5 DR in detail, so please correct me if I did miss something), if Damage Reduction reduces damage from an attack to 0, all special effects that rely on damage are negated as well. Examples include injury type poison and disease, energy drain, continuous bleeding properties (ala wounding), a monk's stunning/the Stunning Fist feat, strike-based confusion effects, and many others.

From the SRD:
Contact
Merely touching this type of poison necessitates a saving throw. It can be actively delivered via a weapon or a touch attack. Even if a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison can still affect it. A chest or other object can be smeared with contact poison as part of a trap.

....

Injury
This poison must be delivered through a wound. If a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison does not affect it. Traps that cause damage from weapons, needles, and the like sometimes contain injury poisons.


So in the world of poisons, a hit is actually making contact, not getting tired from dodging and parrying, and a hit which is not negated by DR is one which causes an injury.

 

[lukelightning]

Actually, some snakes bite quite deeply...especially in D&D when you have 30 foot venomous snakes.

But more importantly, what if someone has a poisoned greataxe and strikes at you? If hit points are abstract vitality, does the axe actually strike you to deliver the poison? If it doesn't, then that effects the poison rules. If it does, then would a non-poisoned axe also be considered as hitting?

On a related note: In the VP/WP system, it is pointless to have a blowgun dart or poisoned arrow... you need to do wound points to actually poison someone, and the best way to do that is with a weapon that does a lot of damage.