Does it qualify?

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

[MENTION=25321]Mad Hamish[/MENTION] at this point you seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing to win, but anyone who has read the rules that I've pulled straight from the RAW can see that a 2-handed weapon can be used as a 1-handed weapon with penalties per RAW, it also states (again I've quoted it twice and won't do so again) that a 1-handed weapon can be USED AS a 2-handed weapon. Just because it isn't as specific as you want it to be or need it to be to follow along with your ideals of what you think doesn't make it so.

Bottom line, there are rules in place to use weapons either way and I don't grasp at straws, but I do concede that the way the rules are written could be a bit clearer so there wasn't a grey area for rules lawyer-types to try to make something out of it that there isn't. This is isn't just a RAW discussion to me, it's also a common-sense discussion. People, literary characters, and fantasy characters oft-times use a one-handed weapon (especially a longsword which is at the heart of our debate) in two hands for greater control, greater defense, and greater swing power. It's really that simple to me. This is why I said in my post that it really comes down to the GM in the game and giving them all the information to make an informed decision on the matter.

 

[Mad Hamish]

[MENTION=25321]Mad Hamish[/MENTION] at this point you seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing to win,

Actually I'm explain the situation as I see it and giving reasons for why I hold the opinion.

[MENTION=25321]
but anyone who has read the rules that I've pulled straight from the RAW can see that a 2-handed weapon can be used as a 1-handed weapon with penalties per RAW

Could you please quote the rules that let you wield a 2 handed weapon with 1 hand in Pathfinder or give a page reference to where they are? (iirc there was Monkey-Grip in 3.x) I don't remember it and you haven't quoted them yet.

[MENTION=25321]
it also states (again I've quoted it twice and won't do so again) that a 1-handed weapon can be USED AS a 2-handed weapon.

Except that's not what it says. It says that you can wield a one handed weapon in two hands and has the strength and a half damage, it does not say that it becomes a 2 handed weapon.

The fact that Power Attack specifies that the increased damage applies to 2-handed weapons and to 1-handed weapons wielded in both hands suggests strongly that a 1-handed weapon isn't a 2-handed weapon when wielded in both hands.

If they intended it to be a 2 handed weapon wouldn't they say "a one handed weapon wielded in 2 hands functions as a 2 handed weapon" rather than stating the damage adjustment again?

[MENTION=25321]
Just because it isn't as specific as you want it to be or need it to be to follow along with your ideals of what you think doesn't make it so.

The fact that a 1 handed weapon can be wielded in 2 hands doesn't make it a 2 handed weapon. You can wield a light weapon with 2 hands as well...

[MENTION=25321]
Bottom line, there are rules in place to use weapons either way and I don't grasp at straws,

There are rules to use light or 1 handed weapons with 2 hands. There are not rules for wielding 2 handed weapons in 1 hand that I can recall in Pathfinder (apart from a Phalanx Soldier who can use a Polearm or Spear as a one handed weapon)

Rules for wielding a 1 handed weapon in 2 hands does not mean that it is a 2 handed weapon for all purposes.

Mithril typically bypasses damage resistance silver but it isn't silver.
A +4 sword bypasses damage resistance Adamantium but it isn't an Adamantium sword.

[MENTION=25321]
but I do concede that the way the rules are written could be a bit clearer so there wasn't a grey area for rules lawyer-types to try to make something out of it that there isn't. This is isn't just a RAW discussion to me, it's also a common-sense discussion. People, literary characters, and fantasy characters oft-times use a one-handed weapon (especially a longsword which is at the heart of our debate) in two hands for greater control, greater defense, and greater swing power.

Yes people can use a 1 handed weapon in 2 hands, find anywhere that I've denied that or that you get the 1.5 times str damage bonus.
It doesn't mean that it becomes a 2 handed weapon.

The wording of Power Attack which specifically includes it as a second case is a very good reason to think that it doesn't become one.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

3 ways of wielding a 2-handed weapon with 1 hand:

1. Cheesy (to me) is - Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
2. Non-cheese is the Titan Mauler barbarian archetype build - You get Jotungrip (EX): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
3. Kinda cheesy again but it's a magical means of doing so,
   
   Strongarm Bracers on Page 139
   Price 6000 GP
   Body Slot Arms
   Caster Level 3rd
   Aura Faint Transmutation (DC 16)
   Activation None
   Weight 1lb When wearing Strongarm Bracers you can weild weapons as if you were one size category larger than normal (You dont take any penalty when using weapons as normal for your actual size). For example, a human wearing these bracers could weild Large or Medium weapons without penalty.
   The effect of these bracers does not stack with the Powerful Build trait (such as that possessed by the Goliath and Half-Giant races).
   Prequisites Craft Wondrous Item, Enlarge Person.
   ​

I just feel you are splitting hairs at this point. There is no real reason why a 1-handed weapon being used as a 2-handed weapon shouldn't be considered a 2-handed weapon for purposes of the feats with the only caveat to me being that the player states that they are using the weapon with two hands. I wouldn't allow someone to do 2-handed weapon feats with a 1-handed weapon if they have a shield or say that they are only using 1 hand to do so. As long as they are wielding it with 2 hands they are for all intents and purposes wielding a two handed weapon that deals less damage dice worth of damage (i.e. the weight and size factor), but it's easier to use a 1-handed weapon with two hands because of the smaller size and lighter weight of said weapon and that is why they wouldn't incur any kind of penalties for doing so. The reason people don't use the smaller and more lightweight swords all comes down to the optimization of their characters. Would you rather get 1d10 with a greatsword or 2d4 with a falchion in 2 hands or 1d8 with a longsword in 2 hands? Pretty easy decision to make for most people.

It really is splitting hairs and trying to be a rules lawyer if you say they would have written it down to be so specific. I believe the intention was already there when they say that you can wield a 1-handed weapon with 2 hands and get the benefit of the 1 1/2x STR bonus.

I'll go so far and say that this is open for interpretation to each GM and how they want to run their games. If you want to run your game where you wouldn't allow it, that's fine. I run my games with a bit more leniency on things like this and think about it and how it'd be done if I was to do it.

Common sense dictates that no you can't wield a light weapon with two hands and make it a two handed weapon, that is where I'm coming from here. We are talking about a specific weapon and that being the longsword. I could go to my bedroom and grab my longsword off the wall and swing it with two hands, I could parry with it with two hands, and I could block with it with two hands. I have more control over the weapon with two hands. This is why the longsword in question would not incur any penalties for wielding it with two hands (and I include not having specific feats available as a penalty for this purpose).

 

[Jester David]

Looking at the feats I think the answer is actually no.
Power attack clearly states that the extra-damage applies if "with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon" Furious Focus also clearly includes both. Shield of Swings and Pushing Assault only mention two-handed weapons, so I'd have to say that it they don't apply to the longsword attacks.

This might be a case of the secondary book being a little less specific than the core rule book. You could certainly argue they just didn't get specific enough and I think any DM would be justified in making that call.

However, two-handed weapons are a different category in the PHB (there are two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons being used with two hands) so I'd be hesitant to allow it to be used for a class build (two-handed fighter). Feats tend to be a little looser, but a two-handed ranger build likely relies on those feats, so it's in the same hesitant area.
However, typically if you're going to two-hand a weapon there are much, much better weapons out there in terms of damage and other bonuses than the longsword. Given its not the optimal choice allowing the feats isn't ultimately broken.
It may not be perfectly RAW, but it feels fair.

And rules questions do not exist in a vacuum. The character in question doesn't have much of a choice. Longsword or nothing. Not letting him use his class features because of a dick magic item hurts a little much.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

This might be a case of the secondary book being a little less specific than the core rule book. You could certainly argue they just didn't get specific enough and I think any DM would be justified in making that call.

I agree, the original information about 1-handed and 2-handed is in the core rulebook whereas a lot of the feats are in the AGP or even UC. So things can get lost in translation.

However, two-handed weapons are a different category in the PHB (there are two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons being used with two hands) so I'd be hesitant to allow it to be used for a class build (two-handed fighter). Feats tend to be a little looser, but a two-handed ranger build likely relies on those feats, so it's in the same hesitant area.

Yes, different categories that is true. The problem is that the OP has a specific intelligent weapon that doesn't like him using other weapons. It sounded like he built a 2-handed weapon build and wants to use his feats that he already has with the intelligent longsword. I completely agree that if this wasn't the case the build would be much different between a one-handed weapon melee and a two-handed weapon melee.

However, typically if you're going to two-hand a weapon there are much, much better weapons out there in terms of damage and other bonuses than the longsword. Given its not the optimal choice allowing the feats isn't ultimately broken.
It may not be perfectly RAW, but it feels fair.

Yes, again this comes down to the OP using his intelligent magical weapon. The main reason to use the 2-handed weapons out there over a 1-handed as a 2-handed are the damage dice, threat range (more with higher range), and damage multipliers. Using the 1-handed to increase damage is definitely not part of that optimization equation.

And rules questions do not exist in a vacuum. The character in question doesn't have much of a choice. Longsword or nothing. Not letting him use his class features because of a dick magic item hurts a little much.

Totally agree here, as a GM I wouldn't squabble with him over it especially if I was the one who introduced the weapon to him! So if the GM gives him grief over it, that is a dick move.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

So after all of these discussions and bringing it before some of the posters from the Paizo forum I have to backtrack a bit and change my thinking on this.

Here's what I now believe when it comes to wielding the longsword with two hands:
1) Longsword is classified or categorized as one-handed medium weapon.
2) Longsword can be used with two hands, but doesn't change categories when doing so.
3) Longsword stays a one-handed weapon for all feats, even if used a a two-handed weapon.
4) Some feats are so ambiguously written that you can use the one-handed longsword as a two-handed weapon and still do them, but others when specifically stated as a two-handed weapon (the category) are not allowed per RAW.

So along those lines, I'd probably have to say that because Shield of Swings says "two-handed weapon" it wouldn't be able to be used when using the longsword even with two hands, but the others like Pushing Assault I'd allow because of the ambiguity of how it is written and how it works with power attack.

 

[Mad Hamish]

This might be a case of the secondary book being a little less specific than the core rule book. You could certainly argue they just didn't get specific enough and I think any DM would be justified in making that call.

I considered that but Furious Focus is in the Advanced Players Guide as well and it does have the provision for 1 handed weapons used in 2 hands so while it's possible that it's just sloppy wording rather than meant to be a difference I don't feel that it can really be relied upon as a reason.

However, two-handed weapons are a different category in the PHB (there are two-handed weapons and one-handed weapons being used with two hands) so I'd be hesitant to allow it to be used for a class build (two-handed fighter). Feats tend to be a little looser, but a two-handed ranger build likely relies on those feats, so it's in the same hesitant area.
However, typically if you're going to two-hand a weapon there are much, much better weapons out there in terms of damage and other bonuses than the longsword. Given its not the optimal choice allowing the feats isn't ultimately broken.
It may not be perfectly RAW, but it feels fair.

It might be reasonable but considering how little extra damage a greatsword does over a 2 handed sword ave 2.5 or a falchion does over a scimitar ave 1.5 I think the option somebody with a longsword or scimitar has of whipping out a shield and fighting one handed and have all their weapon specific feats apply either way (weapon focus, weapon specialisations, improved critical...) and you still have all the magical effects of your primary magic weapon rather than needing a 2nd magic weapon so IMO the couple of points of damage as the tradeoff is probably not a bad thing to give up. (My 15th level fighter would be going from 2d4 + 35 to d6 + 35 damage from a Falchion to a scimitar. Average damage 40 vs 38.5, one handed it'd be d6+27 so average damage 30.5)
Greatsword vs longsword would be 2d6 + 35 vs d8 + 35 so average 42 vs 39.5

And rules questions do not exist in a vacuum. The character in question doesn't have much of a choice. Longsword or nothing. Not letting him use his class features because of a dick magic item hurts a little much.

Dunno, really Shield of Swings strikes me as a poor option and Pushing Assault is really of limited usefulness. You aren't really losing all that much and you can still use any of the other feats you could have selected (iirc)

Now if the GM feels that it's too much of a penalty he can make it a special property of the sword that because of its strange construction or its enchantment it counts as a 2-handed weapon for feats, if you just say it qualifies then why won't it for any other character in the campaign?

 

[Mad Hamish]

3 ways of wielding a 2-handed weapon with 1 hand:

1. Cheesy (to me) is - Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.

1. 
   
   That's not a way of wielding a 2 handed weapon in 1 hand, that's a way of having an extra hand so that you can wield a 2 handed weapon and still have an arm free to do something else
   
   

   [*]Non-cheese is the Titan Mauler barbarian archetype build - You get Jotungrip (EX): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

   
   Yes that is a way but it's a special ability of a particular archetype which makes it very much a special case.
   Also note that it states the wording that "it counts as a 1 handed weapon" if they meant a 1 handed weapon to count as a 2 handed weapon I think they'd have done the same wording where they're defined.
   
   

   [*]Kinda cheesy again but it's a magical means of doing so,
   

   Strongarm Bracers on Page 139
   Price 6000 GP
   Body Slot Arms
   Caster Level 3rd
   Aura Faint Transmutation (DC 16)
   Activation None
   Weight 1lb When wearing Strongarm Bracers you can weild weapons as if you were one size category larger than normal (You dont take any penalty when using weapons as normal for your actual size). For example, a human wearing these bracers could weild Large or Medium weapons without penalty.
   The effect of these bracers does not stack with the Powerful Build trait (such as that possessed by the Goliath and Half-Giant races).
   Prequisites Craft Wondrous Item, Enlarge Person.
   ​

Sorry what book is that from because it isn't appearing in the PRD?
Nor does Powerful Build and Goliath suggests that it's back to 3.x D&D which has no impact on Pathfinder.

In any case a magic item allowing it specifically still wouldn't say anything about the general case.

I just feel you are splitting hairs at this point. There is no real reason why a 1-handed weapon being used as a 2-handed weapon shouldn't be considered a 2-handed weapon for purposes of the feats with the only caveat to me being that the player states that they are using the weapon with two hands. I wouldn't allow someone to do 2-handed weapon feats with a 1-handed weapon if they have a shield or say that they are only using 1 hand to do so.

Then how do you explain that they didn't write it that way and they have specifically called particular cases out where it is usable?

As long as they are wielding it with 2 hands they are for all intents and purposes wielding a two handed weapon that deals less damage dice worth of damage (i.e. the weight and size factor),

The problem here is that you're assuming your conclusion.

but it's easier to use a 1-handed weapon with two hands because of the smaller size and lighter weight of said weapon and that is why they wouldn't incur any kind of penalties for doing so. The reason people don't use the smaller and more lightweight swords all comes down to the optimization of their characters. Would you rather get 1d10 with a greatsword or 2d4 with a falchion in 2 hands or 1d8 with a longsword in 2 hands? Pretty easy decision to make for most people.

A greatsword is 2d6.
the comparison with a falchion should be with a scimitar doing d6 rather than a longsword because the big attraction is the crit range.

But in all honesty for a lot of intents and purposes I'd rather have the longsword or scimitar because while I lose 1.5 to 2.5 points of damage as you go up in levels that becomes less significant and it means that if at any stage you can't wield a weapon with 2 hands or you are up against something that means you want a shield most of your feats apply to your attacks with your weapon used in 1 hand.

It really is splitting hairs and trying to be a rules lawyer if you say they would have written it down to be so specific. I believe the intention was already there when they say that you can wield a 1-handed weapon with 2 hands and get the benefit of the 1 1/2x STR bonus.

You say I'm splitting hairs, I say you're reading far too much into what they do say.
If that was their intent why do they specifically call it out as applying in Power Attack and Furious Focus and why didn't they just use the simpler wording of "if wielded in 2 hands a 1 handed weapon counts as a 2 handed weapon for all purposes"?

I'll go so far and say that this is open for interpretation to each GM and how they want to run their games. If you want to run your game where you wouldn't allow it, that's fine. I run my games with a bit more leniency on things like this and think about it and how it'd be done if I was to do it.

Common sense dictates that no you can't wield a light weapon with two hands and make it a two handed weapon, that is where I'm coming from here. We are talking about a specific weapon and that being the longsword. I could go to my bedroom and grab my longsword off the wall and swing it with two hands, I could parry with it with two hands, and I could block with it with two hands. I have more control over the weapon with two hands. This is why the longsword in question would not incur any penalties for wielding it with two hands (and I include not having specific feats available as a penalty for this purpose).

Except that the idea of the particular feats might be that the size and mass of the 2 handed weapons is vital to them functioning. Or they could be a game balance issue.