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D&D 5E does it seem lke tcoe Order of scribes wizard is largely solutions in search of a problem dressed up as an archetype?

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Funny you should mention lmop because one of the quests in it is to go see someone & trade for a spellbook on behalf of the questgiver npc.
View attachment 129609
oops... There are scrolls of augury, charm person, & fireball...
From memory... stk & CoS have spellbook(s) but not until basically the very end & few if any scrolls. That's the other problem though, if you get a spellbook a couple sessions before gearing up to fight the bbeg & end the campaign or worse after you beat the bbeg... The campaign is wrapping up or actually over so what good does it do the wizard?. You could point at how a lot of HCs have lvery rare, legendary, & artifact class stuff for martials to find at that point in the campaign too... but it's absurd to suggest that a spellbook falls into a similar value
If you get them just before the big bad battle, that's the perfect time for this particular subclass. ONLY this subclass could copy them for use in time for that big battle. All others would need a lot of downtme to do it.

You have, still, not demonstrated your claim that hardcovers don't have spellbooks. Over and over again I and others have demonstrated where you're wrong. So I am waiting for you to offer the tiniest shred of evidence, beyond your blanket statement that it's fact, that what you're saying is actually fact.

Why should people keep trying to disprove your claim if all you do is handwaive it and never come back with evidence in return? You, again, don't seem interested in a conversation.

How about you name four hardcover adventure paths which have no spellbooks in them?
 

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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
If you get them just before the big bad battle, that's the perfect time for this particular subclass. ONLY this subclass could copy them for use in time for that big battle. All others would need a lot of downtme to do it.

You have, still, not demonstrated your claim that hardcovers don't have spellbooks. Over and over again I and others have demonstrated where you're wrong. So I am waiting for you to offer the tiniest shred of evidence, beyond your blanket statement that it's fact, that what you're saying is actually fact.

Why should people keep trying to disprove your claim if all you do is handwaive it and never come back with evidence in return? You, again, don't seem interested in a conversation.

How about you name four hardcover adventure paths which have no spellbooks in them?
already did that earlier man. Are you suggesting that those first and second level spells are adequate? You just didn't bother reading it.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
already did that earlier man. Are you suggesting that those first and second level spells are adequate? You just didn't bother reading it.
Adequate for the levels they're for? Yes, absolutely. Three spellbooks for levels 1-4 of that adventure is absolutely adequate. You didn't do a full review, you cherry picked the early stuff and claimed that was it with no evidence at all. For one part of one adventure.

CAN. YOU. NAME. FOUR. AP. HARDBACKS. WITH. NO. SPELLBOOKS?
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Adequate for the levels they're for? Yes, absolutely. Three spellbooks for levels 1-4 of that adventure is absolutely adequate. You didn't do a full review, you cherry picked the early stuff and claimed that was it with no evidence at all. For one part of one adventure.

CAN. YOU. NAME. FOUR. AP. HARDBACKS. WITH. NO. SPELLBOOKS?
You don't get it, there are no other spellbooks and no other scrolls in the entire DiA adventure other than the ones I listed in that post. It's a HC that runs from 1st to about 13th. Not one to four. Nearly every creature in it has multiple energy resist and/or immune & regularly magic resist to boot. There are monty haul levels of martial items and nearly nothing for casters with spellbooks/spellscrolls for wizards so absurdly inadequate that they might as well have a middle finger as one of the spell entries where they couldn't even bother to include multiple dupicates across three inadequate spellbooks found on a single page. I' hate to give the impression that the HC is just that rough on treasure for everyone though...
+1 longsword (pg70) , +1 maul (pg111), +1 short sword (pg 133), +1 glaive (pg136), "+2 weapon"(pg 67), +2 silvered pike & +2 hellfire warhammer (pg83), +2 leather armor for the rogue (pg133)

There's at least one really nice armor (Obsidian flint dragon plate +2 resist poison & more)

A SHIELD that casts fireball firewall & does a bunch of stuff... possibly because a wand or staff with those spells couldn't be used by martial types practically everything is made for. in this... That +2 legendary shield is obtained wayyyyyy into the HC on page 5

An arcane caster can hope to find a wand of magic missile, wand of secrets, wand of the war mage +one & three nonmagical orbs worth 100gp that can be used as a spellcasting focus & the already noted utterly absurd selection of spellbooks with significant duplication.
 

Willowhelm

Villager
You don't get it, there are no other spellbooks and no other scrolls in the entire DiA adventure other than the ones I listed in that post. It's a HC that runs from 1st to about 13th. Not one to four. Nearly every creature in it has multiple energy resist and/or immune & regularly magic resist to boot.

I don't have time to do this in depth right now (and apologies for the formatting) but i did have enough time to register and do a few quick ctrl+f for "spellbook" and in that chapter alone we also have another mage (with spellbook):

The spellbook contains:
1st level (4 slots): detect magic, mage armor, magic missile, shield
2nd level (3 slots): misty step, suggestion
3rd level (3 slots): counterspell, fireball, fly
4th level (3 slots): greater invisibility, ice storm
5th level (1 slot): cone of cold
plus identify, gust of wind, magic weapon, sending, sleep, and tongues.

Plus, as mentioned already, you can then access candlekeep. If your DM doesn't allow you to find spells in candlekeep then they just plain don't like wizards.

And at the end of the chapter it explicitly calls out that

"A wizard named <spoiler> lives in a tower twenty miles from here. I’ve loaned him a spellbook or two"

Chapter three has more spellbooks explicitly mentioned which include:

1st level (4 slots): detect magic, identify, shield, Tenser’s floating disk
2nd level (3 slots): detect thoughts, mirror image, phantasmal force, suggestion
3rd level (3 slots): counterspell, fear, fireball
4th level (3 slots): banishment, dimension door
5th level (2 slots): contact other plane, hold monster
6th level (1 slot): chain lightning
7th level (1 slot): finger of death
8th level (1 slot): mind blank

I'm not continuing to search because I don't want to read too much and spoil myself in case i play that adventure some time but i think it is clear that there are more spellbooks even in that adventure?

I haven't played DiA but in every (official) adventure i have played or DM'd the wizard ends up with more money to spend and spells to copy than time to copy them. Maybe that doesn't happen for you but it is not unusual. That restriction all but disappears with this subclass. It makes copying spells a practical possibility without stopping the entire adventure for a week and hoping the bad guys take a holiday too.

Quick Edit:
Nearly every creature in it has multiple energy resist and/or immune & regularly magic resist to boot.
This sounds like a perfect opportunity for a subclass with the ability to switch out the damage type on their spells. Imagine if you went from a damage type they were immune to (or even just resistant) to one they were vulnerable to! Thats more that a 400% damage increase! I wonder if one exists...
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
You don't get it, there are no other spellbooks and no other scrolls in the entire DiA adventure other than the ones I listed in that post. It's a HC that runs from 1st to about 13th. Not one to four. Nearly every creature in it has multiple energy resist and/or immune & regularly magic resist to boot. There are monty haul levels of martial items and nearly nothing for casters with spellbooks/spellscrolls for wizards so absurdly inadequate that they might as well have a middle finger as one of the spell entries where they couldn't even bother to include multiple dupicates across three inadequate spellbooks found on a single page. I' hate to give the impression that the HC is just that rough on treasure for everyone though...
+1 longsword (pg70) , +1 maul (pg111), +1 short sword (pg 133), +1 glaive (pg136), "+2 weapon"(pg 67), +2 silvered pike & +2 hellfire warhammer (pg83), +2 leather armor for the rogue (pg133)

There's at least one really nice armor (Obsidian flint dragon plate +2 resist poison & more)

A SHIELD that casts fireball firewall & does a bunch of stuff... possibly because a wand or staff with those spells couldn't be used by martial types practically everything is made for. in this... That +2 legendary shield is obtained wayyyyyy into the HC on page 5

An arcane caster can hope to find a wand of magic missile, wand of secrets, wand of the war mage +one & three nonmagical orbs worth 100gp that can be used as a spellcasting focus & the already noted utterly absurd selection of spellbooks with significant duplication.
So no, you cannot name four AP Hardcovers which have no spellbooks? Apparently, cannot even name one? And Willowhelm just demonstrated you had not in fact accurately represented even the one you commented on?
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
So no, you cannot name four AP Hardcovers which have no spellbooks? Apparently, cannot even name one? And Willowhelm just demonstrated you had not in fact accurately represented even the one you commented on?
When did completely inadequate amount to levels that go deep into "you have a bad gm or need to talk with them to show them how badly they are handling the needs of your class'class" in any other edition equal zero? Finding a spell book too late to make any meaningful use of the spells in an adventure with few if any scrolls is not meaningfully different and both are miserably failing to meet the needs of the class.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
When did completely inadequate amount to levels that go deep into "you have a bad gm or need to talk with them to show them how badly they are handling the needs of your class'class" in any other edition equal zero? Finding a spell book too late to make any meaningful use of the spells in an adventure with few if any scrolls is not meaningfully different and both are miserably failing to meet the needs of the class.
So no then? Nothing? No AP hardcover book examples?

OK. Thought so.

This spin your putting on it about being too late in the adventure to matter is also is unproven. Given you got the ONE book you were commenting on badly wrong, I don't buy it. And since you've show you won't go through even one adventure to bother to check your claim, much less more than one, and will dismiss others who do spend the time to go through adventurers and prove their point, why should your spin be viewed as credible?
 

Why does it matter what's in the hardcovers so much?

Ok. It seems like probably the majority of groups are using them - but are we assuming they're also doing nothing to tailor the events in the adventure to their particular PC group?

That's a truly depressing thought.
 

To an extent, it's up to the player. In my experience, a good wizard player is always badgering the DM "are there any libraries or book dealers in this town?", "I search for the spellbook of the wizard we just defeated".
 

Why does it matter what's in the hardcovers so much?

Ok. It seems like probably the majority of groups are using them
The majority of the time? That seems very unlikely to me. I would estimate that I use published adventures (not just WotC) about 25% of the time. The remaining 75% I write myself. And any of the published stuff I use is adapted to suit.

I just can't get where the OP gets so much bile towards this subclass from. I can get that they may have had a bad experience playing a wizard, but surely they cannot believe that everyone has the same bad experience?! And I can't get why they are singling out this subclass when so many of the PHB wizard subclasses are little more than base class + ribbon.
 
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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
People have been clamoring for a "generalist" wizard since 5E's release 6 years ago (because apparently "generalist" wizards are unable to avoid hitting their party members in combat, which is why the Evocation school wasn't "generalist" enough for them.)

So now we have the Order of Scribes to fill the "generalist" wizard motif. It only took 6 years, but hopefully those that wanted it got what they were hoping for.
I always saw the abjurer as the generalist. After all, to most people goal #1 is survival. It takes someone a bit... off... to give up the defensive bonuses of the abjurer...
 


BacchusNL

Explorer
I always saw the abjurer as the generalist. After all, to most people goal #1 is survival. It takes someone a bit... off... to give up the defensive bonuses of the abjurer...
ArtiChron says hi ;)

On the topic of spellbook-availability; I don't agree at all that they are spread to thin in official adventures to make Scribe Wizard bad. If the argument is that there are WAY more magic items over-all that benefit a non-caster; sure. That's pretty much what Tasha's tried to fix.
 

TheSword

Legend
This also completely ignores the ability to trade spells with pretty much any wizard you meet.

PC: “Excuse me Heironomous, we brought you back that scepter you asked for. I wondered would you be willing to trade a few spells as a professional courtesy...”

H: “Sorry my young fellow, I don’t have all day to wait while you copy spells.”

PC: “Don’t worry sir, I’m pretty quick. Will just take a few minutes of your time. Here’s a bottle of fine wine I seem to have lying around if you want to put your feet up.”

Most wizards spellbooks probably wouldn’t even be listed in the book as treasure if there’s no reason to kill them.
 

TheSword

Legend
Incidentally I’m about a third of the way through checking Rime and I’ve found 3 spell books. One including spells up to level 5.

I think we can put this spell book availability issue to bed now.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Why does it matter what's in the hardcovers so much?

Ok. It seems like probably the majority of groups are using them - but are we assuming they're also doing nothing to tailor the events in the adventure to their particular PC group?

That's a truly depressing thought.


For a significant percentage of groups, the HD adventures will be a huge crutch if not near instruction manual on how to run a campaign when they are starting. That is not a controversial statement and in the absence of things like the old wealth by level charts its tue only real yardstick to compare against for deciding how they should award things so scrolls get underutilized and spell books are treated like the days of 1st&2nd edition where magic was really rare because it was generally so powerful. Add in the general lack of caster focused gear that @BacchusNL mentioned and that influence gets worse as it's stacked against a desire to give cool stuff to the non caster classes piles treasure high on them.
@baccusnl yes tasha's tries to address that generally completely ignored hole in magic items& feats five years and many sourcebook/he adventures in. The fact that it took them so long to even recognize the need coupled with the extreme hostility of the fairly recent dia makes it reasonable to wonder if wotc did that because they realize they made mistakes and need to do better in future HC releases or were just filling space.

@Paul Farquhar yes I too see wizard players constantly asking those sort of questions in groups, but it shouldn't be ignored how that stacks up against practically every single library & bookshelf they encounter in their early HC experiences being a dud affects things.in past editions a group would tear apart any library/study/bookshelf looking for the spellbook & spell scrolls they logically expect to have a likely change of finding if they are going to find anything but in 5e the HC adventures teach them of how badly mistaken that assumption is. One example of a houseowned by a wizard(sorcerer?) with a library in it that both contain no scrolls and no spell books in cos where the owner is described as having been learning magic comes to mind where the owner also has neither and is really only a noteworthy example because it ties so many duds together in one place at the same time. We won't know how serious they are about the kind or stuff we saw in tasha's until the next HC comes out.
1607184756073.png

awesome
N3m... a locked closet! t must be hidden there to keep it safe!

1607184886527.png

1607184901914.png

N3t victor's workroom! maybe there?!
1607184994277.png
N4P library! score right?!
1607185143082.png

1607185184576.png

1607185259565.png
Well... hell what about one of the baddies or Victor?!...
1607185479107.png

It doesn't include the teleport spell the adventure has been talking about, the glyph of warding he's been using, have a single complete spell
[/spoiler]
That kinda stuff like LMOP's spellbook quest, all of DiA ,& that CoS middle finger doesn't happen by mistake. It happens when it's not even a consideration. & no happy accident of chance handling it elsewhere..
 

Shadowedeyes

Explorer
The whole point is that he did not have a complete version of Teleportation Circle though, so I'm not sure why it would be in there? The spellbook at the very least would have the standard mage npc spells, and probably should have glyph of warding since the book says he has casted it.
 

@Paul Farquhar yes I too see wizard players constantly asking those sort of questions in groups, but it shouldn't be ignored how that stacks up against practically every single library & bookshelf they encounter in their early HC experiences being a dud affects things.
The point is, those things are not there unless the wizard actually looks for them. You would not expect every last second hand bookstore to be even mentioned in a town directory, never mind a full inventory of their stock.

The DM is expected to create these things, just as they are expected to create a florist or a brothel, if the players ask about them.

The same goes for wizards they defeat in combat. If they are a wizard, then they must have a spellbook, and it must contain the spells they know. It is not necessary to list it in their description, just as it in not necessary to list their boots and pointy hat.

in past editions
Past additions where no different. The DM was expected to use their common sense when the players ask about anything not mentioned in the text.

So, there is nothing wrong with this wizard subclass. Somehow you have become convinced the WotC published adventures do not have spellbooks and scrolls. This is, frankly, bollocks, but you have clearly decided to believe what you want, and you are not going to let inconvenient facts get in the way. Good night.
 

G

Guest User

Guest
Yes occasionally you will come up against dispel magic if the DM changes stat blocks as one would expect them to.
Beholders, babau demons, (a CR 4 demon that can be summoned by Greater Summon Demon), both cast Dispel Magic at will. That is just the 1st two monsters under the letter "B" that pop to mind.
WHY would you be out of low level spell slots? What adventure are you on where that is happening?
Any number of adventures can drain one dry. Gith raiding parties trying to recover the Silver Sword your party had in it's possession before, a lich that really wants revenge, etc, etc.

The Terminator, Aliens, (the James Cameron films in general), routinely are premised that the villain of the piece requires everything the protagonist has and more to defeat.
Some DMs, script adventures with the same assumption.

You are also overlooking Chapter 9 of the DMG, the DMG Workshop.
The Gritty Realism rest variant rules are on page 267. When a Short Rest takes 8 hours to be completed, and a Long Rest requires 7 full days to be completed, even Arcane Recovery resources can be stretched thin, if you have to routinely re-manifest Manifest Mind.

Not all games run off the same assumptions....I thought that was the established position of ENworld for matters under discussion.

Order of Scribes would be fine, for a low pressure, low Tier game.
A game that assumes that resources will always be strained, might not be the best
fit for OoS.
 

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