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D&D 5E does it seem lke tcoe Order of scribes wizard is largely solutions in search of a problem dressed up as an archetype?

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Assuming that you will never encounter a Dispel Magic spell, because of the default spell selection in the MM is a huge catch in my book.

The subclass was introduced in the book that has as it's raison d'etre is Player Customization. DMs could always modify monsters, but Tasha's should further reinforce that. If a sorcerer farmer can cast Magic Chicken Missiles...then a DM can swap spells from the pre-made lists.

I play defensively....the Manifest Mind ability is easily negated. Failure to recognize this in a very difficult game is going to lead to a poor ending.

But hey, man if you and TM never encounter Dispel Magic...cool. 🖖
Not really a response. It costs a first level slot to re-summon it.
 

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G

Guest User

Guest
I'm not sure what point you think you are making Mistwell.
In 3e...sure 1st level spells became useless due to how spell DCs were calculated.
That isn't the case in 5e.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter still works in T4. One will have much better options, but THL works. A Protection from Good and Evil protects from a whole host of conditions caused by a whole host of creatures.

Also Manifest Mind states this:
Once you conjure the mind, you can't do so again until you finish a long rest, unless you expend a spell slot of any level to conjure it again.

So if you are out of 1st level spell slots, you are using a higher level slot to re-manifest
the mind.

I will state again, different games means different assumptions. Some games are not very challenging when it comes to resource management, some are.

Assuming you will almost never encounter Dispel Magic, is an assumption that is unlikely to come true.

Assuming that you can end every Adventuring Day with spell slots unspent, (and thus able to be re-charge Manifest Mind), seems more likely to me, than the assumption stated above.

I will also state, I am currently in a game, where every day the group finishes on empty.
5e is officially a multiverse filled with infinite worlds...not all of them will have 'easy' assumptions.
 

Eeeh. To my mind Wizardly Quill is clearly a ribbon.

You can tell because you get two features at the same level. Awakened Spellbook is the real feature.

I agree that it looks like a solution searching for a problem. Although it's probably better if your DM lets you copy out spells on the first short rest you get and doesn't make you go back to town to get supplies or spend money (and one could well interpret the power to imply you don't have to).
That's basically what is seems like. A ribbon for the impatient wizard player.
 
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TheSword

Legend
I think it’s great. Nice, flavorful subclass with some interesting abilities. Swapping spell energy types on the fly is very useful. As is casting spells from relative safety. Creating scrolls for free overnight adds a lot of utility in games where you don’t get much creation time, as well as even more useful when you do. One with the word seems to be a spell that would save your life while retaining all your remaining hp... handy when you get hit with disintegrate or powerword kill.

Incidentally, @Mistwell ‘s point is very clear. Yes occasionally you will come up against dispel magic if the DM changes stat blocks as one would expect them to. However, the unfortunate times this does happen the scribe responds by using a first level spell. If that enemy wizard is using its action to cast dispel Magic and the party scribe can invalidate that by spending a 1st level slot as a bonus action then the scribe is definitely winning. I wish the enemy wizard would spend all their 3rd level slots this way! Sounds like an easy combat.
 
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TheSword

Legend
Also saying the cost of scribing a spell with the quill becomes all about practicing with spell components... well what about when that spells components are sand and a bit of fleece?

As a DM i would allow the cost of scribing to be negated with the quill unless the spell has components worth 1gp or more. Otherwise they’re in your pouch like all other cheap components/or you use your focus item.
 


tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
I'm not sure what point you think you are making Mistwell.
In 3e...sure 1st level spells became useless due to how spell DCs were calculated.
That isn't the case in 5e.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter still works in T4. One will have much better options, but THL works. A Protection from Good and Evil protects from a whole host of conditions caused by a whole host of creatures.

Also Manifest Mind states this:
Once you conjure the mind, you can't do so again until you finish a long rest, unless you expend a spell slot of any level to conjure it again.

So if you are out of 1st level spell slots, you are using a higher level slot to re-manifest
the mind.

I will state again, different games means different assumptions. Some games are not very challenging when it comes to resource management, some are.

Assuming you will almost never encounter Dispel Magic, is an assumption that is unlikely to come true.

Assuming that you can end every Adventuring Day with spell slots unspent, (and thus able to be re-charge Manifest Mind), seems more likely to me, than the assumption stated above.

I will also state, I am currently in a game, where every day the group finishes on empty.
5e is officially a multiverse filled with infinite worlds...not all of them will have 'easy' assumptions.
there is also the fact that it sheds bright(?) light and you can only cast through it proficiency bonus times per long rest. Yea there can be times when its useful but it doesn't rise to the level of rescuing the class from the almost whiny mediocre other abilities crippled by cost . Meanwhile it's getting talked up like its sneak/reckless
attack or rage
 

TheSword

Legend
there is also the fact that it sheds bright(?) light and you can only cast through it proficiency bonus times per long rest. Yea there can be times when its useful but it doesn't rise to the level of rescuing the class from the almost whiny mediocre other abilities crippled by cost . Meanwhile it's getting talked up like its sneak/reckless
attack or rage
You seem to be having a raw, almost visceral reaction to the existence of this subclass. Are you truly unbiased here?

What abilities does it have that are crippled by cost? That don’t cost the same for regular wizards?

Regarding the paucity of treasure in official books. I just did a quick tot up of levels 1-4 of Baldurs Gate: Descent. 6,843 gp of priced treasure, that’s 1,710 gp per character in a typical 4 player group. You could assume that not all that would be found / taken but then it doesn’t include unpriced items like equipment or magic items (many of which wouldn’t be used by PCs and therefore are likely to be sold or traded). What on earth does a level 4 wizard spend 1,710 gp on if not on spells.

Incidentally there are at least 3 spell books in those four levels... and they gain access to Candlekeep 🤷🏻‍♂️ I think you should consider revising your opinions about spell access in Hard Covers.
 
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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
You seem to be having a raw, almost visceral reaction to the existence of this subclass. Are you truly unbiased here?

What abilities does it have that are crippled by cost? That don’t cost the same for regular wizards?

Regarding the paucity of treasure in official books. I just did a quick tot up of levels 1-4 of Baldurs Gate: Descent. 6,843 gp of priced treasure, that’s 1,710 gp per character in a typical 4 player group. You could assume that not all that would be found / taken but then it doesn’t include unpriced items like equipment or magic items (many of which wouldn’t be used by PCs and therefore are likely to be sold or traded). What on earth does a level 4 wizard spend 1,710 gp on if not on spells.

Incidentally there are at least 3 spell books in those four levels... and they gain access to Candlekeep 🤷🏻‍♂️ I think you should consider revising your opinions about spell access in Hard Covers.
The awakened spellbook's damage shuffle is "you can temporarily replace its damage type with a type that appears in another spell in your spellbook, which magically alters the spell's formula for this casting only. The latter spell must be of the same level as the spell slot you expend."

This archetype needs both the "intentionally overtuned" spells of each level in addition to one or more damage spells chosen entirely for their damage type of each spell level to make use of it. That eats both of the free 2/level spells and relies on the benevolence of the gm and/or whims of adventure builders in addition to gold putting a bigger need ton the archtype to scribe more spells than other wizards. Thanks to the boneheaded choice to lean into "natural language" there is a reasonable argument to be made that the first point does and does not provide the ink needed to scribe the spell into the spellbook depending on which way specific beats general leans resulting in a class that plays massively different from table to table. In both cases, without something like the old guidance for purchasing copying spells from another wizard they can't even take a mountain of gold & buy them like classes that do the same with +n weapons & armor... To rub salt in the wound though, because the wizard spends so much scribing spells to their spellbook they are going to have a hard time buying anything like that as the only class with a built in class mechanic gold sink even if the gm lets them go shopping


Yes some HC adventures are better than others & newer ones are doing better than older ones, but Descent into avernus is not one of them & I'll go into that at the end... Without a WBL type chart the GM has no yardstick to determine if the players are underfunded overfunded or just about right & how much they should do about it if they suspect they need to bring things in line. Likewise if the players had too much treasure they couldn't find/take as you noted they have nothing they can point at when trying to convince the gm why they need to let them do some side quests for coin to make up for bad perception/investigation checks, generally not painstakingly mapping out every square inch of everything, and inadvertently stumble the path that seals off the option for treasure too often


It should be a great wizard archetype that has a clear niche within the scope of the class that differs from evoker's blasting, necromancer's undead, etc in a visceral way that feels rewarding, but the determination of that falls largely on how a particular bit of natural language is interpreted & in the event of one interpretation if the GM or adventure has enough gold+scrolls/spellbooks available to meet that bar.

The level 6 manifest mind is a nice feature & I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise, but a 10ft radius dim light that lets you cast a spell from it proficiency bonus times/long rest is not the "encounter trivializing" super scout the archetype should hang it's claim to fame on that some people are making it out to be... The scouting also stomps hard on the toes of scout types like rogue making "let me send my spellbook to go arcane eye around" both frustrating for other players & certain to push the gm towards creating "solutions" for an invincible camera drone that will have long lasting effects on the usefulness when it's actually needed

As to your choice to tally up the gold for levels 1-4 in descent into avernus.... Thanks you for choosing such an incredible example for my point. Yes page22 does indeed have...
1607092529058.png
Just so there is no confusion, I highlighted the first level spells & underlined the second level spells which leaves....
Page 23 has a slightly better spellbook on flennis with
1607092695082.png
Notice how one page apart the wizard is already up to 11 first level spells with five of them being duplicates in the 4 spellbooks. That's ok though because I'm sure there's another better spellbook later in the adventure?... oh wait no there isn't. Maybe the spell scrolls will save it?
Pg70.. mass healing, remove curse, tongues... well tongues & remove class are on the wizard list too so huzzah?.... Maybe DiA makes up for it with amazing caster loot to match up with the awesome monty haul levels of martial focused treasure
pg95 wand of magic missile, page102 circlet of blasting & wand of secrets, page 109 +1 wand of the war mage(one). In addition to all the +1/+2 martial stuff not listed here that totally compares to all the amazing monty haul martial gear in DiA... but take heart because a wizard can be sure to have plenty of gold to scribe every wizard spell they could find in the entire hardcover long before they hit level 5. Did you seriously take the time to add up all of the gold in levels 1-4 of DiA & not notice how bad the spellbooks are compared to the randomly generated treantmonk one or even stop to consider if there were other better spellbooks in the entire HC? That sort of oversight while holding it up as an example of WotC meeting the needs of the wizard class in adventure design makes it reasonable to wonder how fundamentally flawed the quicksand foundations supporting the rest of your arguments are beond just the flaws I've pointed out.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
People have been clamoring for a "generalist" wizard since 5E's release 6 years ago (because apparently "generalist" wizards are unable to avoid hitting their party members in combat, which is why the Evocation school wasn't "generalist" enough for them.)

So now we have the Order of Scribes to fill the "generalist" wizard motif. It only took 6 years, but hopefully those that wanted it got what they were hoping for.
 


TheSword

Legend
The awakened spellbook's damage shuffle is "you can temporarily replace its damage type with a type that appears in another spell in your spellbook, which magically alters the spell's formula for this casting only. The latter spell must be of the same level as the spell slot you expend."

This archetype needs both the "intentionally overtuned" spells of each level in addition to one or more damage spells chosen entirely for their damage type of each spell level to make use of it. That eats both of the free 2/level spells and relies on the benevolence of the gm and/or whims of adventure builders in addition to gold putting a bigger need ton the archtype to scribe more spells than other wizards. Thanks to the boneheaded choice to lean into "natural language" there is a reasonable argument to be made that the first point does and does not provide the ink needed to scribe the spell into the spellbook depending on which way specific beats general leans resulting in a class that plays massively different from table to table. In both cases, without something like the old guidance for purchasing copying spells from another wizard they can't even take a mountain of gold & buy them like classes that do the same with +n weapons & armor... To rub salt in the wound though, because the wizard spends so much scribing spells to their spellbook they are going to have a hard time buying anything like that as the only class with a built in class mechanic gold sink even if the gm lets them go shopping


Yes some HC adventures are better than others & newer ones are doing better than older ones, but Descent into avernus is not one of them & I'll go into that at the end... Without a WBL type chart the GM has no yardstick to determine if the players are underfunded overfunded or just about right & how much they should do about it if they suspect they need to bring things in line. Likewise if the players had too much treasure they couldn't find/take as you noted they have nothing they can point at when trying to convince the gm why they need to let them do some side quests for coin to make up for bad perception/investigation checks, generally not painstakingly mapping out every square inch of everything, and inadvertently stumble the path that seals off the option for treasure too often


It should be a great wizard archetype that has a clear niche within the scope of the class that differs from evoker's blasting, necromancer's undead, etc in a visceral way that feels rewarding, but the determination of that falls largely on how a particular bit of natural language is interpreted & in the event of one interpretation if the GM or adventure has enough gold+scrolls/spellbooks available to meet that bar.

The level 6 manifest mind is a nice feature & I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise, but a 10ft radius dim light that lets you cast a spell from it proficiency bonus times/long rest is not the "encounter trivializing" super scout the archetype should hang it's claim to fame on that some people are making it out to be... The scouting also stomps hard on the toes of scout types like rogue making "let me send my spellbook to go arcane eye around" both frustrating for other players & certain to push the gm towards creating "solutions" for an invincible camera drone that will have long lasting effects on the usefulness when it's actually needed

As to your choice to tally up the gold for levels 1-4 in descent into avernus.... Thanks you for choosing such an incredible example for my point. Yes page22 does indeed have...
Just so there is no confusion, I highlighted the first level spells & underlined the second level spells which leaves....
Page 23 has a slightly better spellbook on flennis with
Notice how one page apart the wizard is already up to 11 first level spells with five of them being duplicates in the 4 spellbooks. That's ok though because I'm sure there's another better spellbook later in the adventure?... oh wait no there isn't. Maybe the spell scrolls will save it?
Pg70.. mass healing, remove curse, tongues... well tongues & remove class are on the wizard list too so huzzah?.... Maybe DiA makes up for it with amazing caster loot to match up with the awesome monty haul levels of martial focused treasure
pg95 wand of magic missile, page102 circlet of blasting & wand of secrets, page 109 +1 wand of the war mage(one). In addition to all the +1/+2 martial stuff not listed here that totally compares to all the amazing monty haul martial gear in DiA... but take heart because a wizard can be sure to have plenty of gold to scribe every wizard spell they could find in the entire hardcover long before they hit level 5. Did you seriously take the time to add up all of the gold in levels 1-4 of DiA & not notice how bad the spellbooks are compared to the randomly generated treantmonk one or even stop to consider if there were other better spellbooks in the entire HC? That sort of oversight while holding it up as an example of WotC meeting the needs of the wizard class in adventure design makes it reasonable to wonder how fundamentally flawed the quicksand foundations supporting the rest of your arguments are beond just the flaws I've pointed out.
Woah. ... take it down a notch.

You have conveniently ignored the position that the players are getting 1,700 GP to spend on whatever they want. Objecting in principle that wizards have something to spend money is bizarre. They can buy their abilities... unlike fighters or rangers. That is a benefit of wizards, not a problem or tax. If only fighters could buy a couple of extra fighting styles! Wizards are one of the best classes in the game, still and you think they’re hard done buy?!

This isn’t based on DM whim. It is established that in towns, common low lever spells are relatively easy to find for sale or copying. With higher levels available in Cities. What? Your DM won’t let you find a fireball or Ice Storm to scribe in Waterdeep? Find a new DM! Not that this is any easier than finding +1 swords that rely on convoluted buying rules. What do you think Patron, Organisations, and NPCs are for?

You said spellbooks were rare. I showed you a recent HC with four in the first two chapters and now you say the spells aren’t good enough. Talk about moving goalposts. Those might not be the spells you want but they are level appropriate and useful. I honestly can’t believe you’re complaining that 4 spells are duplicated... of course they are... they’re some of the most common spells in the game! Those books can also be sold or traded for other spells. Adding to the wealth.

I note you ignored Candlekeep. Once players have access using their rare tome, they don’t pay per book! That’s the whole point of Candlekeep! This is an excellent example of an opportunity to acquire spells

The party are travelling to hell, where there are literally dozens of demons and devils in the game desperate to bargain with heroes...not to mention the wandering Emporium. Of course spells would be useful currency.

Perhaps a narrow approach to the subject is causing you to overlook the methods in the game that provide spells in addition to spell scrolls and higher level spell books? Perhaps broaden horizons and you will see that there are in campaign fixes built to enable wizardly play.

There is no yardstick for wealth because it depends on the party. Simple as that. Expectations on wealth per level and magic economy can seriously get on some groups/DM’s wick. However I gave an example of 1,700 GP by level 4. You conveniently ignored the ramifications of this. Despite the the point that it points the lie to your claim that HC’s have low wealth. I’m happy to check Rime when I get home.

You’ve substantially overestimated how good subclass abilities should be in comparison to other schools, and exaggerated how good people think the subclass is. For the most part people think it’s a solid, fun subclass on top of a very good base class, not the Second Coming!

I think at this point, despite a lot of other people (almost everyone) telling you that you’re going off the deep end, you’re fixated on problems that just don’t really exist in the game. As a life long player of wizards I can tell you with confidence that I ALWAYS have more spells in my spell books than I could ever memorize, without relying on DM fist. Play some games with it as DM or player and then come back and tell us it’s as bad as you claim.
 
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Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
This made my power hungry Wizard thirsty. He rightly sees how gold/time costs on spell book maintenance is one check on his power and wealth. In this world, the economy is on the silver standard, so gold amounts are roughly halved. There are gold coins, but not in the amounts the default loot tables describe. It was a little more work on my part, but also kind of fun world building. Wrote up a whole document on the actual needed earnings to hit different economic classes (poor, modest, comfortable, wealthy, Aristocrat). And since the wizard and sorcerer are in bed together on a maritime company, I used those lifestyles to calculate how much running various sized ships would cost them.

I learned way more about historic fishing than I ever expected. I wonder what that knowledge pushed out of my brain so it had room...

So I know, and he has said, he was drooling over the sub-class and the time and money savings he would make in game. They are currently all level 6, and he has already acquired 2 spell books and hopes to create a back-up of his own.

I understand this is my table, and we are in a homebrewed world, but that is just the thing. This is an option for those tables and wizards that want that expansive spellbook with backups, but also want to live lavishly. Plus, there is plenty of power in those features.
 

Yes... and?

It sounds like you are trying to explain unknown things by pointing out things explicit ly quoted in the OP without the reasons why those things make for a problematic situation.
Yeah, I didn't mean to post that. I completely misread your post last night on the initial read through. It's just written in a way that's really confusing to me, even now.

But, no, I didn't mean to post that.
 


Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I'm not sure what point you think you are making Mistwell.
In 3e...sure 1st level spells became useless due to how spell DCs were calculated.
That isn't the case in 5e.

Yes, it is. First level slots eventually are used almost exclusively for Shield and Absorb Elements spells at mid and high levels. I know this from experience. EVERY player of Wizards at mid and high levels knows this from experience. You have so many spell slots by those levels, and your cantrips (which scale) are so much better than first level spells, that they go unused. Certainly they are worth bringing back your awakened spellbook after it's dispelled, as draining that dispel from a foe is well worth a first level spell slot.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter still works in T4. One will have much better options, but THL works.
Oh no, it really doesn't. Your Spell DC doesn't scale great in this game. A single-target, save-every-round first level spell is not worth casting at mid and high levels. You should have cantrips which are much more effective than that. In fact wizards now have a cantrip which can reduce foe saves by a d4 and that will be much more valuable than a spell like Tasha's Laughter. Tasha's just isn't prepared by mid and high level wizards as a spell anymore. It would take up a valuable preparation slot that is needed for a higher level spell.
A Protection from Good and Evil protects from a whole host of conditions caused by a whole host of creatures.
Circumstantial but sure. I am not saying there are no first level spells left to cast. I am saying you will have first level slots to spare for a thing like this.
Also Manifest Mind states this:
Once you conjure the mind, you can't do so again until you finish a long rest, unless you expend a spell slot of any level to conjure it again.

So if you are out of 1st level spell slots, you are using a higher level slot to re-manifest
the mind.
Dude, have you played a mid to high level wizard? WHY would you be out of low level spell slots? What adventure are you on where that is happening? I really want to know. Because this is not an issue for Wizard players. There are lots of issues Wizard players run into, and "running out of lowest level spell slots at mid and high levels" just is not a common problem. Certainly not for "dealing with the higher level Dispel Magic from a foe" to get what essentially is an Arcane Eye spell (4th level spell) for a first level slot!

I will state again, different games means different assumptions. Some games are not very challenging when it comes to resource management, some are.

Assuming you will almost never encounter Dispel Magic, is an assumption that is unlikely to come true.

It is HIGHLY LIKELY to come true. It is 1) not a spell prepared by foes in almost all published adventures, 2) is not a spell prepared by foes in almost all published monsters in the game, and 3) is not a spell worth preparing for most foes, particularly to combat an effect which can be brought back as a first level spell, because that is a losing battle.

But hey, if you are in a special rare kind of game where this is an issue, then sure. But it's such a not-representative-issue that I don't know why you are raising it as if it is.

Of all the things to be criticizing TreantMonk for, this is not one of the better and more persuasive arguments.
 

Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
I mean... personally I am with TreantMonk. It is high on my list of characters to play, once I get to, you know... play and not DM.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I am now curious if anyone has ever made a list of all the treasure available in various Adventure Path books by WOTC published for 5e?
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Checking DnDBeyond, all of these adventures have spellbooks it looks like (and this is not the full list just a very quick search): Rise of Tiamat, Dungeon of the Mad Mage, Lost Mine of Phadelver, Storm King's Thunder, Curse of Strahd, Hoard of the Dragon Queen, and Rime of the Frostmaiden. And I mentioned earlier there are several in Yawning Portal (which didn't come up in my quick search, which is how I know it's not a complete list).

I think we can put to bed this claim that the published adventures don't have spellbooks. They do.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Checking DnDBeyond, all of these adventures have spellbooks it looks like (and this is not the full list just a very quick search): Rise of Tiamat, Dungeon of the Mad Mage, Lost Mine of Phadelver, Storm King's Thunder, Curse of Strahd, Hoard of the Dragon Queen, and Rime of the Frostmaiden. And I mentioned earlier there are several in Yawning Portal (which didn't come up in my quick search, which is how I know it's not a complete list).

I think we can put to bed this claim that the published adventures don't have spellbooks. They do.
Funny you should mention lmop because one of the quests in it is to go see someone & trade for a spellbook on behalf of the questgiver npc.
1607136397002.png

oops... There are scrolls of augury, charm person, & fireball...
From memory... stk & CoS have spellbook(s) but not until basically the very end & few if any scrolls. That's the other problem though, if you get a spellbook a couple sessions before gearing up to fight the bbeg & end the campaign or worse after you beat the bbeg... The campaign is wrapping up or actually over so what good does it do the wizard?. You could point at how a lot of HCs have lvery rare, legendary, & artifact class stuff for martials to find at that point in the campaign too... but it's absurd to suggest that a spellbook falls into a similar value
 

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