Does Precocious Apprentice really work like this?

[Amazing Triangle]

I was thinking of making a Mystic Theurge. Thing is I want to focus mostly on Clerical abilities. While studying Complete Arcane I came across Precocious Apprentice (pg 181). It allows you access to one 2nd level spell of your arcane casting class. So I have seen an opening for neat combos. Mystic Theurge: It only needs 6 ranks in 2 skills (Knowledge (Arcana)(Religion)) and 2nd level casting in both divine and arcane magic.

So I thought for my 17th level character: Warmage 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/ (who cares for this example) Could I do this if I took Precocious Apprentice at 1st level?

 

[Knight Otu]

I was thinking of making a Mystic Theurge. Thing is I want to focus mostly on Clerical abilities. While studying Complete Arcane I came across Precocious Apprentice (pg 181). It allows you access to one 2nd level spell of your arcane casting class. So I have seen an opening for neat combos. Mystic Theurge: It only needs 6 ranks in 2 skills (Knowledge (Arcana)(Religion)) and 2nd level casting in both divine and arcane magic.

So I thought for my 17th level character: Warmage 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/ (who cares for this example) Could I do this if I took Precocious Apprentice at 1st level?

The designers said that the intend is No. The written text may go either way. Of interest is the following paragraph:

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you may use to prepare (or spontaneously cast, if you are a spontaneous caster) 2nd-level or lower spells as you normally would.

This strongly implies that the feat itself doesn't give you the "ability to cast 2nd-level spells," as you'd immediately lose the normal benefit, and instead receive a bonus 2nd level spell slot to your normal (undefined) amount.
End result - check with your GM.

 

[Iku Rex]

Mystic Theurge: It only needs 6 ranks in 2 skills (Knowledge (Arcana)(Religion)) and 2nd level casting in both divine and arcane magic.

Actually, it requires the ability to "cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells". So strictly as written the feat won't help you, as it only lets you cast a single 2nd level spell.

The feat also makes it quite clear that this one spell doesn't count as ability to "cast 2nd level spells". ("Until your level is high enough to cast 2nd level spells..." and "[w]hen you become able to cast 2nd level spells...")

(Preview: Too slow once again. Bah.)

 

[Amazing Triangle]

See I was debating this with myself: If your arguement is true then why is it that every printed thing says that a 4th level Sorcerer qualifies? Granted they can cast their singular spell 3 times a day but still only casts a singular 2nd level spell.

Reference: Mystic Theurge

Therefore, a cleric 3/wizard 3 or a cleric 3/sorcerer 4 could easily qualify for this prestige class

Table: Sorcerer Spells Known
	Spells Known 
Level	0	1st	2nd
1st	4	2	—
2nd	5	2	—
3rd	5	3	—
4th	6	3	1

This is the reason I posted this to the boards.

 

[Vegepygmy]

So I thought for my 17th level character: Warmage 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/ (who cares for this example) Could I do this if I took Precocious Apprentice at 1st level?

Check out the Southern Magician feat from Races of Faerun. If you take your first 3 levels in cleric, you can take SM as your 3rd-level feat. Then take 1 level of warmage and you qualify for MT beginning at 5th level.

 

[ohGr]

Actually, since the feat says "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells..." and not "When you become able to cast 2nd-level arcane/wizard spells...", you technically would lose the ability to cast that single 2nd-level wizard spell the instant you hit cleric 3 and were able to cast 2nd-level cleric spells. Hooray for semantics.

 

[Amazing Triangle]

But it doesn't say that it removes your ability to cast that paticular spell. My question is does gaining this 2nd level casting make say my Scorching Ray a Divine spell? As that is what I can cast or does it stay a 2nd level arcane spell?

 

[monboesen]

What you should be asking yourself (or rather your DM) is if you think that such a character build would be fair and on the same level of power as what the other players bring to the table.

Should the answer (yours or the DM's) be no, there is no need for further discussion.



Not surprisingly my answer as a player and DM would be a resounding NOOO.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, it requires the ability to "cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells". So strictly as written the feat won't help you, as it only lets you cast a single 2nd level spell.

"I cast my second level arcane spell today. I cast it yesterday. I cast it three days ago.

I cast three second level arcane spells this week."


"Strictly as written", it can be read either way.

Ditto for a 4th level Sorcerer casting his single second level spell multiple times in a given timeframe.

And if it were meant for "within a single day", then there would be some third level Wizards who only have a single second level spell slot who do not qualify either.


Btw, I agree that the designers have stated that it was not intended for this use. I also agree that it is slightly unbalanced to do so. I allowed a player to do this for his Wizard 1 / Psion 3 / Cerebremancer and have regretted it ever since.

 

[Amazing Triangle]

Let us Analyze this from a purely power vantage:

BaB +7 Fort +6 Ref +4 Will +12

Sure no one will likely beat my will save; but the chances of that as a pure Cleric were slim to begin with. I will never really stand a chance on either a Fort or Ref save as they are both horrendusly low for a 14th level character. Since most of the warmage's good spells are ranged touch and with a BaB that is 1/2 my HD.

As a Warmage:
I can cast as an 11th level character. I can only cast in Light armor, lowering my armor class making it easier to hit me. I lose the chance to learn 3 spells not on my list. I also lose both Sudden Empower and Sudden Enlarge. I am limited to Evocation spells only. So as a caster I have no utility as a Warmage. So as far as power goes I stunt myself by going into Mystic Theurge as I also lower my hit die by one step.

As a Cleric:
I can only cast as a 13th level Cleric. Due to my Arcane restrictions I lower my armor class, not carrying a shield and wearing light armor. I lose 10 levels of turning strength. Has far as hit points are concerned I lose two die sizes by taking up the Theurge.

Compared to other characters:
Same BAB as a 14th level Wizard, Same fort save as a 9th level cleric a reflex save that is the same as a 14th level Cleric and a will save that is the same as a 20th level Cleric.
I have (with no con score) 51 hit points as compared to 67 as a Cleric or 52 as a Warmage. So besides being able to cast 5th level Arcane and 7th level Divine what advantage do I get from this mix of classes? I get a better Will Save and Arcane spells. Fewer Hit points, Fewer Divine spells, Lower Fort Save. Looks like 2 postitives versus 3 negatives. So explain over-powered to me? For as a DM and a Player the only advantage I see is spell selection and addition of Arcane spells (albeit limited) to the selection.

I could see the power issues if I were using Wizard and Cleric or even Sorcerer and Cleric but Warmage has a hearty restriction on their spell choice. As in there is only one book for such a character to look in as opposed to the numerous books that a sorcerer/wizard can look in.