D&D 5E Does/Should D&D Have the Player's Game Experience as a goal?


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Never minding that you have decades of Dragon and Dungeon Magazine (both print and online) discussing all this sort of thing in considerable depth. Articles by the designers of the game explaining various elements and design decisions.

It's not like this sort of thing is all that unusual. As I recall Ironsworn goes into quite a lot of detail about why different things are the way they are. Years ago, Chronic Feudalis as well as 316 Carnage Beyond the Stars and Sufficiently Advanced all detailed this sort of thing as well.

Transparency is hardly a rare thing.
 

It was a perfect example for my point... Again it has rules but they aren't the best for any of those things... The claim is always you can do X with D&D but why when its not the best at X. Or is your claim now D&D (including 3pp) doesn't have any rules? Specific rules?? I'm actually confused by the claim you're making here.

But it's not a good example because No Man's Sky doesn't say "Want to use Mechs? Program it yourself!"

The rules for many things for D&D are anemic to nonexistent. Want to fight monsters? TONS of rules to support that experience. Want to be a sailor? A lot less there. Want to shift the danger level? Here's a few suggestions, but we're not gonna really elaborate on why they'll help or what else you can do and (most importantly) why.

Very often the game avoids committing to mechanics in favor of punting that to DMs. They expect DMs to become game designers. But they don't generally offer much in actual and specific advice for game design.

If you are dictating what the game us about... how are you not?

I didn't do that. I suggested what I think it should do. But I also said that there are multiple paths. A game can focus on a specific player experience and then design toward that. Or it can design for multiple player experiences. I think there should be games of both types. I don't think either is "wrong" or that D&D must be one over the other. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else that there's a best way.

However, whichever way they go, I think they need to actually support that choice. If their desire is to deliver a game that can support a vast array of player experiences, then I think they need to actually support that decision with the game's design. I don't think that 5e does a great job of that at all. There's some minor advice and some examples of different mechanics that can be bolted onto play... but I don't think a lot of consideration has been given to those mechanics.

Why indeed when you can learn through numerous resources that show real worl application and examples??

Eh maybe for you but for the younger audience they are targeting... I think the leveraging of videos, real examples, social media, quick takes and so on is key to not only sttracting them but teaching them the game..

I think such advice runs the gamut. You can find almost any opinion about D&D online. It's not deadly enough... it's too deadly. And so on.

I think that the books should instruct players how to play the game. Which also means how to run a game as a DM. I don't think that's a crazy assumption to make. The fact that it's even being questioned is a bit odd.

I'm all for supplemental material online. How-to videos and the like. All that would be great. But the books should, in my opinion, provide the foundation for all of it.

And I've yet to hear a compelling argument otherwise. It seems to amount to appeasing players and DMs who have decades of experience, who should already be familiar enough with all this stuff to be perfectly comfortable with it.
 


You've missed a number of posts and threads, then.
Indeed.

I don't think anyone's saying that.

But no one should be getting upset when it's pointed out that Call of Cthulhu is better at playing out a Lovecraftian adventure than 5E, even if "well, I had a Deep One in my 5E game, and it went fine," which OK, sure.
The problem, unfortunately, is that this is passed through a filter:

"CoC is better at playing out a Lovecraftian adventure than 5e" -> "5e is worse at playing out a Lovecraftian adventure than 5e" -> "But I can do whatever I want with 5e, meaning I can refine it to be just as good as CoC at Lovecraftian adventures" -> "Therefore 5e can't actually be worse than anything else at playing out a Lovecraftian adventure."

The problem is, when you apply this filter on a consistent basis, it necessarily results in "5e is the best system." Because no system can be better--you can always do more work, do more design, fill in more gaps, patch over any problems, and thus you can always at least match it, with enough homebrew and a nigh-infinitely skilled DM.

In other words, the Oberoni fallacy, writ large. "Because I can retool it, it can potentially do anything."

5e itself has become a Batman Wizard to its boosters.
 

the endless cantrips, bloated hit points, super-healing, perfect magic casting, limited conditions, alignment issues, no risk/cost for magic, standard proficiency increase in all things across the board, bounded accuracy breakdown, high magic, broken feats, pointless odd numbered ability scores, dexterity superiority over strength, no tactics in weapons, monster manual = new PHB, d20 being swingy allowing proficient to surpass those proficient, the debate about material components for spells, bulk carrying, broken classes, spells granting auto successes, realism taking a backseat, world building with magic, weapon proficiency being a joke...etc
Emotional / spiritual conflict
Cost of using magic may incur a risk (possibly a physical toll)
Weapon choice playing a greater role
Limitations of magic and magical power
Bulk and weight are significant limitations
Importance of mundane equipment
Comeliness plays a role
Exhaustion is far more common
Slower recovery of health
For some reason I've been drawn back to these lists. I think its because I find them so very clear and powerful.

There is technical language that can be used to analyse and describe the relationship between (a) the mechanical (and quasi-mechanical, eg alignment) aspects called out in the first list, and (b) the fiction that is (not) produced by those mechanics, that is called out in the second list. The mechanical aspects constitute resources, effectiveness and positioning, as components of PC build; and also establish currency rules that mediate between resources, effectiveness, and positioning: and it is the upshot of these currency rules that precludes, or at least pushes against, the generation of the fiction that is called out in the second list.

Being able to use that technical language to describe the workings of the game is helpful for designers, including those like @AnotherGuy who want to build their own FRPG system. Of course having a technical vocabulary won't magically produce a good design on its own; but it at least points towards things one can think about in coming up with, and testing, and analysing, one's design.

Being clearer in the rulebooks, about the intended or likely emergent play experience, doesn't necessarily require using the technical vocabulary of design. But it would involve stating, in non-technical language, the sorts of patterns and consequences that the technical language is used to describe and analyse. This would be like any other instruction manual, which should be comprehensible to non-engineers, but should state propositions and reflect technical relationships that the engineers understand and that has informed and/or is the result of their design.

A simple example: a game with endless cantrips (effectiveness), where spells grant auto-success (reliable effectiveness), plus high magic (so cantrips and spells provide good effectiveness, even permitting the MM to become a new PBH for some players), plus perfect magic casting with no risk/cost (so no resource risked/consumed by casting - cf the hit points that are risked/consumed by sword-fighting), does not have currency rules that will produce fiction about the costs, limits, or risks of magical power.

Another example: a game with super-healing (so hit points are a low-stakes resource), combined with broken feats and bounded accuracy breakdown (so effectiveness can be significantly increased without increasing the pressure/stakes on that resource), where there is little or no tactics in weapons (so that choice of weapon does not significantly interact with fictional position to modify effectiveness), does not have currency rules that will produce fiction about the importance of weapon choice, and similar mundane concerns, in succeeding in violent conflict, where those who act casually without thinking through such concerns will at best suffer the consequences of a slow recovery of health, and perhaps will suffer much worse.

A third example: a game with standard proficiency increase in all things across the board (effectiveness) but in which the swingy d20 frequently allows the non-proficient to surpass the proficient (effectiveness) does not have currency rules that will produce fiction about the importance of training, experience and preparation in overcoming challenges. (This last one is not on the second list, but I hope @AnotherGuy feels it fits into the spirit of the list nevertheless.).

What the currency rules that underpin the relationship set out above will tend to produce is a fiction in which magic is a boon and a bounty that everyone should want, a well that is plentiful and painless to drink from; a fiction in which choice of weapon is primarily colour and in which violence is casual and even perhaps on occasion cartoonish; and a fiction in which luck and spontaneity, not doing the hard yards, is the key to overcoming challenges.

As I said above, it is possible for a rulebook to describe the sort of fiction the game's currency rules will tend to produce, without having to explain, in technical terms, why or how it tends to produce it.
 

Many have pointed out that the title of the thread is nonsensical.
Guilty.
Other have stated it's not clear what I am getting or advocating.
True.

It is a ramble of half-thoughts intended to spark a conversation. I'll try to craft posts more carefully and thought-out in the future.

I had been reading some non-rpg material about game design. Those sources advocated defining what specific play experience you want players to have with game and focus on that in your design. I thought, well, D&D does not do that, but the rules do lend themselves to a certain style of play in my experience. That's where my original mess of a post is coming from - should D&D be designed with a specific play experience in mind?

Many have pointed out that they should not as it would lead to attacks from "alienated" players have a different experience in mind. I think that's true. It probably would be a mistake for D&D to advocate a specific style of play at this point.

I really don't have a dog in this race either way. However, I have enjoyed most of the conversation - Thanks!
I see the disconnect now. RPG design has a lot in common with non-RPG design, but there are areas of nuance that separate them. I think its best to view RPGs in two categories (there can certainly be more). The first is a general application. D&D has firmly moved into this category as a general fantasy RPG. What that means is you get a base kit ruleset that is designed to be loose so it can accommodate multiple experiences. The second, is a bespoke application. This aim is for a specific experience, for example, the Bladerunner RPG that leans into the themes of the film. Bladerunner is not a kit for running whatever sci-fi/cyberpunk/noir experience you want. There are pros and cons to each approach.

How then does D&D deliver a less general game experience? I believe this is the realm of adventure design. Take a look at another general system Savage Worlds. There are ways to play dungeon crawlers, super heroes, cyberpunk, etc.. The base system is just for adjudicating results, but the adventure materials expand the rules into a specific experience. D&D, historically, has done this in a more subtle fashion with subjects like political intrigue, horror, scifi, etc..

This paradigm has helped me make sense of some comments folks have in regards to D&D. Often, their suggestions are attempts to make D&D a specific game ruleset, when I think they would have more luck asking for adventure packages that move the game in the desired direction. YMMV.
 

I see the disconnect now. RPG design has a lot in common with non-RPG design, but there are areas of nuance that separate them. I think its best to view RPGs in two categories (there can certainly be more). The first is a general application. D&D has firmly moved into this category as a general fantasy RPG. What that means is you get a base kit ruleset that is designed to be loose so it can accommodate multiple experiences. The second, is a bespoke application. This aim is for a specific experience, for example, the Bladerunner RPG that leans into the themes of the film. Bladerunner is not a kit for running whatever sci-fi/cyberpunk/noir experience you want. There are pros and cons to each approach.

How then does D&D deliver a less general game experience? I believe this is the realm of adventure design. Take a look at another general system Savage Worlds. There are ways to play dungeon crawlers, super heroes, cyberpunk, etc.. The base system is just for adjudicating results, but the adventure materials expand the rules into a specific experience. D&D, historically, has done this in a more subtle fashion with subjects like political intrigue, horror, scifi, etc..

This paradigm has helped me make sense of some comments folks have in regards to D&D. Often, their suggestions are attempts to make D&D a specific game ruleset, when I think they would have more luck asking for adventure packages that move the game in the desired direction. YMMV.

The only thing I would add to this is specific campaign settings also can and do serve the purpose of delivering a less general game experience as well.
 

The only thing I would add to this is specific campaign settings also can and do serve the purpose of delivering a less general game experience as well.
Yes, a good response. Also, why settings can be very controversial as well. Do you go with a specific setting experience or do you make a commonly known kitchen sink setting? In the past, D&D leaned heavily on the former, but it seems the latter works better from a business standpoint if you look over at Paizo.
 

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