Does the 3e Ranger stink (as is)?

I would not say the PH ranger stinks. Needs a little work, maybe. :D

After trying many variants, both mine and others, I have been using these changes and tweaks for rangers in my games. Take them for what they are worth.

Rangers: Will have a caster level of class level –3 instead of ½ caster level. Their favored enemy bonus starts at +2 instead of +1. They no longer get the virtual Ambidexterity and TWF feats*. Instead, they get one bonus feat at 2nd level. They get 6 skill points per level instead of 4.


*I also do not use Ambidexterity. I rolled its benefit into TWF and gave TWF a Dex 13+ prerequisite, similar to the d20 Modern feat.
 
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Frostmarrow said:
That's the problem right there. If the DM caters to your special abilities you feel singled out like a teacher's pet or something. If the DM forgets about your special abilities at least you are allowed to feel autonomous. Still, it had been best if the player got to chose when to use his talents.
I guess it all depends on the group. I agree that it can complicate things a bit, but it doesn't take much for a DM to remember that the ranger should have his favored enemy in there from time to time. It's not perfect for sure, but it doesn't stink. The ranger class just isn't for everyone which is why I like the changes that are being made. I don't love every change and occassionally will probably use a variant ranger for my games in the future (as I have done in the past) but I use varients for many classes for flavor reasons.

As for your reasoning above, a certain amount of maturity and level-headedness can solve that problem. I've never had a problem with a DM making sure any other PC got to use his class abilities. It's not that hard. Like for rogues, throw some traps in there - not that hard. Ranger - throw some *pick a favored enemy* in there. No big.

I know all the arguements against what I'm saying and I actually agree with some of them. The whole "DM gets to choose when the character's ability kicks in" thing is a good arguement. But it is defeated by the DM being in control and being fair. How good is a fighter without things to beat on? What about a cleric (assuming he has a decent turning score) without some undead? Isn't that a form of favored enemy? I dunno, maybe the games I'm in are different but none of my players have complained when playing rangers. I run it fair and straight and they know that. Maybe that is the key.

I guess the main problem is the diversity in gaming. Not every group is the same and they have different ideas, concepts and playing styles. I'm just saying that the ranger is fine as is and doesn't stink because I have run into no problems with it since 3e came out. Others have had problems with it and I can see their points and agree that change is good.
 

In terms of balance, favored enemy is a balance headache. I'm not sure how often I should be doing +5 damage to something. Unfortunately, the better option is Weapon Specialization, which is clearly a fighter ability, not a ranger ability.

Not enough skill points!

From a style point of view, TWF style sux. Archery is only a little better (since players might actually use it) but a ranger should not fight as well as a fighter.

Then there's spells...
 

silly question

Anyone who would say this class stinks is a power gaming twit. If you need to come to these boards to ask that question you are being silly.
Why is it that this great game has come down to mechanics and has lost the rp appeal in the eyes of mechanical power junkies. It is the fault of the computer games that has taken the "role playing" out of the this game.
Dude... my suggestion is if you want to play the class play it and dont ask these guys.
 

Frostmarrow said:


That's the problem right there. If the DM caters to your special abilities you feel singled out like a teacher's pet or something. If the DM forgets about your special abilities at least you are allowed to feel autonomous. Still, it had been best if the player got to chose when to use his talents.

Worse, yet, some DMs will avoid your Favored Enemy because you're "Way too good against them. Unbalanced, even."

My opinion is that the class is reasonably balanced. Not at the top of the power curve, but in the acceptable zone.

It isn't a ranger, though. It's focus is too narrow. TWF has nothing to do with being a ranger and that is the class's signature.
 

I don't think he stinks.

He's got some problems:

1. TWF may or may not be your bag; the class shouldn't be defined by it. (I'm more an archer-ranger fan, myself)

2. He's a little short on skill points for the best "stealthy wilderness warrior"

3. He's too front-loaded -- encourages 1 level of class for powergaming; fewer reasons to stick with the class long-term.

4. Favored enemy is under control of the DM, not the player -- OK for a minor fature of the class, but in the ranger's case it's sold as a pretty major feature.

Nothing prevents a ranger (as is) from being viable ... he just has a few too many compromises to make most people happy. Classes that try to be everything end up being nothing.
 

Anyone who would say this class stinks is a power gaming twit.

1) Outright ad hominem attacks are utterly inappropriate in this forum. Tone it down.

2) I would say that this class stinks

3) Desiring balance does not make one a power gamer

4) Desiring balance does not make one a bad roleplayer. Maybe someone *gasp* wants both balanced mechanics and roleplaying.

5) Saying this class stinks might have nothing to do with mechanics (this is my position; I think the class sucks as a wilderness warrior, in roleplaying terms).

6) Those who enjoy a different style of play, whether power gaming or not, are not necessarily twits. People enjoy different things, and there's nothing intrinsically good or bad about any type of gaming being discussed here.

7) You're making an assumption that people who desire balance (*raises hand*) play computer RPG's (*lowers hand*)

8) This game has by no means "come down to mechanics." Mechanics always have been and always will be a part of D&D. Live with it or play free-form. It is one element, and asking questions about it does not mean that that is the only element.
Example:
You to your significant other: did you get a haircut?
Significant other: How dare you judge me ONLY BY MY HAIR? *storms out of room, never to be seen again*

9) Dude... my suggestion is that if you want to tell people that they shouldn't be discussing the rules of a game on a messageboard dedicated to discussing that game, then just don't bother posting.
 

Ah! A ranger thread! I've responded to so many of these I made a webpage for it so I could cut-n-paste!

http://www.murchadslegacy.com/rantranger.htm

....

After two years I have read exactly eight million and six on-line discussions about rangers. I have heard over and over how much other people feel that rangers are awful. I disagree. Rangers are a perfectly fine class. But for some reason, people keep comparing the ranger to a fighter! Why? In a stand-up fight a ranger will lose to most classes BUT the point of being a ranger is to insure the fight is not stand-up to begin with!
Rangers are the only class outside of rogue and monk that get Hide and Sneak as class skills.

Rangers get summon spells.

Rangers get polymorph self.

So a ranger can hide, summon some critters to outflank an opponent, and melee the opponent down (they can also turn into something nasty if needed). Remember also that as long as a spell is on the spell list, a given class can use items that produce that effect. A first level ranger can use a monster summoning wand or scroll just as well as a wizard ... AND they can do it all in armor because their spells are divine, not arcane. Plus, after the fight he can heal up a little bit before heading back to town.

The common complaints I hear about rangers are:

"One of the ranger's minor abilities isn't as good as another class' major ability!"

An example would be the ranger's heals versus a cleric's heals. Of the healing classes, rangers are the worst at the job. But for some reason people project this as a reason why rangers are lousy as opposed to an ability they have in the first place. Sure the cleric, paladin, and bard are better healers. But what happens when the party cleric is out of commission? Who's going to heal then? The barbarian? Saying that one or two classes are better at something than the ranger doesn't mean a darn thing. The ranger still has the ability and the character can still use it.

"My ranger isn't as good in melee as the fighter!"

Well, that's not surprising. The fighter is geared around (guess what?) fighting while the ranger is generalized. The fighter vs. the ranger is a trade-in of eleven feats for 46 skill points, four levels of spell ability, and five favored enemies (which is worth about the same as a feat). So the ranger is far more versatile. Granted, in a hack-n-slash campaign those abilities are not in play as often. But again, we're comparing a highly specialized character class (fighter) against a jack-of-all trades (ranger) and surprise, surprise the fighter is better at his specialty. If you're having this problem: stop playing your ranger like a fighter! Sure, you don't get a rogue's sneak attack ability, but you can hide and sneak around an opponent to outflank without drawing an Attack of Opportunity (because the bad guy doesn't know you're there). You can cast a spell to hinder an enemy and then close with the enemy to engage him. There are lots of options that the fighter doesn't have. Also, for some reason I keep hearing about rangers who use two longswords in combat. Guys, you'll hit more often if you use a shortsword in your off-hand. Also, a shield counts as a light weapon. Shield-bashing is great against weaker opponents that you just want to carve through and you have the shield equipped when you need that higher AC against the tougher foes.

"Favored enemy is no good!"

A +1 bonus to Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Wilderness Lore is no good? Sure if you make sure to pick an enemy that the DM never uses in his game. One may as well say that a cleric's ability to turn undead is no good if the DM doesn't have any undead in his game. If a campaign doesn't have a theme, taking human or elf as an enemy is a good guideline because humans and elves are pretty common in most games and your basically getting some free skill points out of the deal. But if a campaign has a theme (e.g. Murchad's Legacy) this should be a no-brainer. I mean, what ranger wouldn't take orc as a favored enemy in Murchad's Legacy?

"Bows have a lower damage output than melee!"

Right. Because bows are used from 30 feet away, can instantly re-target without the character having to move around, can attack enemy spellcasters who are hiding behind their minions, and can be used against flying creatures. Next.

"The core rule's version of a ranger doesn't fit my concept of a ranger!"

The core rules version of a druid doesn't fit my concept of a druid. The core rules version of a cleric doesn't fit my concept of a cleric. The core rules version of a bard doesn't fit my concept of a bard. You don't see me complaining. If your concept of a 20th level ranger is the equivalent of a Fighter10/Rogue9/Druid1 then that's what you should play. The strength of the 3rd edition rules is that they are much more flexible than the older versions. That flexibility should be used.

"The older versions of the ranger were better!"

Well, the older version of the ranger depended on good die rolls at character creation. That was removed from 3rd edition and for good reason. If two people are playing and one guy gets good die rolls, why reward that player with even more options? The guy who rolls well is already going to be better off! The older version of the ranger (and for that matter the paladin and other classes) rewarded people who got lucky in the first place and the people who didn't roll well were stuck with classes they may not have wanted to play. Well, until Skills & Powers came out and then everyone was godlike at first level.

"But everyone says rangers suck!"

Everyone is repeating what they've heard rather than reach their own opinion. Everyone is having their ranger charge headlong into combat next to the fighters. Everyone has DMs that never include a creature type in their game once the ranger chooses it for a favored enemy. Everyone who plays a ranger only takes healing spells for their spell list and then is surprised when the cleric does the healing. Everyone who plays a ranger doesn't use the magic items available to them based on their spell list. In other words, everyone is playing a ranger like a fighter and letting the DM push their character into a corner.

Everyone is wrong. The ranger is a great class.
 
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Why is it that this great game has come down to mechanics and has lost the rp appeal

Could it be that game mechanics are related to role-playing?

For instance, the skilled ranger is a game mechanic. The enforced TWF is also a (bad, IMO) game mechanic.

As for game balance, a DM should not have to "babysit" a class.
 

well, we just finished a 15 month long campaign where the PCs got up to epic levels (mid 20s)... we had one pure human ranger who was one of the more effective party members, another fighter/ranger (he was a pure fighter for 12 or 13 levels, then had a calling to become a ranger, and ended up with a good 12/13 levels in ranger) and another guy had a ranger last up to 9th level before he died.

None of us complained about the ranger being too weak. In fact, the rest of the group sometimes thought the ranger was too strong - above average fighting ability, spellcasting, good skill point allotment (though, it could be better, I will say), ranger skills like tracking and favored enemy.
 

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