Does the 3e Ranger stink (as is)?

I only have one simple question. How many of the people that are complaining about the power of the ranger have actually played one?

I am sure that some of them have, and am also sure that some have not. I myself dont like the idea of the sorcerer and do not want to play one. This does not mean it is a bad class or not balanced at all, just not what i want to play.

A ranger (after playing one) is a viable class IMO. It boils down to any other class, you have to pick your options.
 

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Mostly, I like the ranger. They could be a little less shoehorned into their TWF setting. For example, I toying with an elven archer who uses a bow and a spear, and the bonus TWF doesn't seem so useful. But there's nothing wrong with having a pair of emergency daggers for all those times a spear isn't a good weapon. So that's not so much a worry as it is a bonus that's sometimes irritating because it's not the bonus I want.

What irques me about the ranger is the ranger's spell selection. I would have liked to have had a few more spells selected that could duplicate more sublte effects. It'd be neat to have a few more spells available so that a ranger could be constructed with a spell-less feel, and just the occasional eyebrow rasing moment.

And as far as the crappy skill points go, they're on the same level as the bard. And when you look at it like that, it doesn't seem nearly so bad.
 

BiggusGeekus@Work said:

"Bows have a lower damage output than melee!"
is a great class.


Where on earth did you come up with this? Archery is so broken is isn't even funny. Long sword: 1d8+7 max without strength bonuses. Arrow: 1d8+12, not counting strength or feats like pbs or magic items like bracers of archery, etc.
 

Could be better...

Rangers, like Bards, are Generalists. They can do a little bit of a lot, but much worse than the Rogue, and a bit worse than the Bard. They have the third best skill list in the game.

Rangers are semi-spell-users, but worse than any other semi-spell-user. All others get six levels of spells. Rangers get four. This USED to be balanced by the fact that they got first and second level MU spells, too, but that has now almost been taken away (they still get Alarm and Sleep, although the latter too late to be much use, and less so as they advance).

Their spells are some of the worst as far as scaling goes, as well. Rangers don't get first level spells until seventh level (fourth, if they have 12+ WIS). By then, Sleep will, on average, affect one target (if they're lucky), and Summon Nature's Ally I (which gives them a whole two rounds of attacks from a one hit die creature) is pretty worthless, as well. Both only get worse, as time goes by. Their caster level advances the slowest of any class, save the tying Paladin's.

Rangers can be scouts, but they will always be inferior to Rogues, whether in the wilderness or in the city or dungeon. Rangers/Rogues with the same stats and ranks in Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot, and with the same equipment, who scout against the same opponents... If the Rogues is surprised, he has light armor, and his Uncanny Dodge prevents him from being caught flat-footed, so he gets DEX, too. The Ranger has the same armor, but gets caught flat-footed without DEX... If the Rogue succeeds in gaining surprise, he sneak attacks for extra damage. The Ranger gets nothing, unless he ran into a "favored" enemy, when he gets +1-5... Likewise, the Barbarian is a slightly less-superior scout. He has Uncanny Dodge and faster movement, but not Spot. If surprised or not, he can choose to rage. The Ranger can stand there, flat-footed, and get hammered... I think even the Monk is about as good as a scout as the Ranger is.

According to the class calculator, the Ranger is THE weakest PHB class, and second only to the Psion, overall. (And some say the Psion is under-rated.)

The Ranger class concept is vague, and ill-defined, if not undefined. The Ranger has few class abilities, and NONE of them have to do with scouting, survival, or wilderness travel (note I said class abilities, NOT skills), save the spells.

Spell are obviously missing. Looking at the Plant & Animal Domains, Barkskin is one obvious example. Also, out of all the spell-users (and even semi-spell-users), only the Ranger and Paladin do not get zero-level Orisons. While the Druid gets Know Direction, the Ranger gets the ability to spend too few skill points on the nearly-useless Intuit Direction - hence, the Druid is a better party guide at first level than the Ranger.

And then there are those missing skills and spells... Almost any other spell-caster (and even Paladins) are better in the desert and (ant)arctic than the Ranger, because they have access to Endure Elements, which lasts 24 hours... The Ranger does not! And who is best at stalking across icy terrain? Why the Rogue, of course, because only he is likely to have the Balance DC 15 needed to stay afoot! And who will best guide the party, once direction is known? Why, the Clerics, Sorcerers, and Wizards with access to Knowledge (Geography), of course! Who else? :( Who will be best in a fight? The Fighter, of course! Who will be best in the outdoors? Probably the Druid. Who will be best at healing? The Cleric, Druid, Paladin, and Bard. Who will be best at Climbing and Swimming? Probably the Rogue, followed by the Monk, tied with the Ranger, perhaps.

So what is the Ranger the best at? Being a Generalist? Nope! The Rogue is the best, followed by the Bard... Killing "favored enemies"? Nope, the fighter is still better. Wilderness survival? Nope! Druids and Clerics of the Travel Domain are better, and Barbarians at least as good...

So, the Ranger is not best at anything, nor even second best. He fights less well than the Fighter, but about as well as the Paladin (I think the Barbarian outshines him, a bit - YMMV). Scouting and spying? Nope! The Rogue is better, and the Monk about as good, with the Barbarian and Bard close behind. Travelling across, over, through the wilderness? Nope! Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, and Swim all belong to the multi-talented Rogue (and the Monk can do as well as the Ranger). Ride belongs to the Paladin.

Okay, the Ranger gets Animal Empathy, IF he can find the skill points to feed it. The Druid will probably be better, but at least he's second-best at SOMETHING, if he pumps his skills in it, instead of stealth, perception, and/or Wilderness Lore/Survival. At least in 3.5e, he'll have a few more skill points.

So, what is the Ranger supposed to do? Scout? (Where are his scouting ABILITIES?) Be a Survivalist (Where are his survival ABILITIES?) Be third rate in everything except Animal Empathy (and second rate in that)?

And some people want to take away his spells, and Ambidexterity/Two-Weapon Fighting...

While we're at it, let's drop his hit dice to D6, remove both of the above, replace them with Uncanny Dodge and Sneak Attack, give him the ability to detect DC 20+ traps, add a bunch of new skills but get rid of Medium Armor Proficiency but keep Wilderness Lore/Survival...

There you have it, the new Ranger: The Rogue with Wilderness Lore! :rolleyes:

None of this is really my main problem with the Ranger, though... MY main problem with the Ranger is that, as an outdoorsman, I expect to open any book on wilderness survival, and have my Ranger be able to do anything I see therein. That's why I play Rangers.

The problem is, it just doesn't work that way, even after level upon level... (Yes, I play Rangers; always). Oh well! I keep hoping the next version will be better... In every case (from Strategic Review, through 1e to 2e, to 3e), he just keeps geeting weaker and weaker...

Just give the Rogue Wilderness Lore and get it over with, already! :mad: :(
 
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I've played a handful of 3e rangers in my day. I don't have any problem whatsoever with the power of the class at all. I do have a number of problems with the flavor of the class. Of course, I have a number of problems with the flavor of base D&D in general, but the ranger, being an archetype that I really like, seems to represent those problems to me somehow. :)
 

Re: Could be better...

Steverooo said:

Rangers can be scouts, but they will always be inferior to Rogues, whether in the wilderness or in the city or dungeon. Rangers/Rogues with the same stats and ranks in Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot, and with the same equipment, who scout against the same opponents... If the Rogues is surprised, he has light armor, and his Uncanny Dodge prevents him from being caught flat-footed, so he gets DEX, too. The Ranger has the same armor, but gets caught flat-footed without DEX... If the Rogue succeeds in gaining surprise, he sneak attacks for extra damage. The Ranger gets nothing, unless he ran into a "favored" enemy, when he gets +1-5... Likewise, the Barbarian is a slightly less-superior scout. He has Uncanny Dodge and faster movement, but not Spot. If surprised or not, he can choose to rage. The Ranger can stand there, flat-footed, and get hammered... I think even the Monk is about as good as a scout as the Ranger is.

The ranger can actually hit things in combat. A rogue has a lot harder time hitting. The sneak attack bonus damage only helps if you actually hit. The d10 hit die can usually make up for any hits someone gets against them the first round of combat.

In my experience, the ranger is as good of a scout as a rogue. Outdoors, they are much better because of their tracking ability.
 

Tracking rarely makes a difference. If you don't find the tracks you or the DM will find another way to advance the plot. I know that there are times when you actually benefit from tracking (such as spotting bugbear tracks leading into a dungeon room) but really, who cares? You'll find out soon enough once you enter the room. The only time tracking will make a difference is when the DM set it up to. Basically the ranger needs to be pampered his entire life by a benign DM.

I still like tracking as an ability for the ranger but only for the flavor. If you could substitute tracking for power attack I guess most rangers would.
 

Hi, everybody!

You know, as many bajillion threads we've had about whether or not something is under-overpowered or whether something sucks, you'd think this lesson is taken to heart.

First of all, insulting or personally flaming fellow posters is against the policy at ENWorld. People can find ways to say things without insulting one another's intelligence or play styles, or their opinions.

Second, I commend the majority of posters in this thread who are doing their utmost to keep things civil. Hat's off to a stellar group of ladies and gentlemen.

Let's ensure that we don't in future posts insult the validity of one another's opinions as to game mechanics.

Carry on, oh assiduous philosophes of wildcraft! :)

Henry
Moderator
 

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
How does TWF help a ranger survive in the wild?

Who ever said that it did?

If you've been reading these Ranger threads, then you should know (by now) that I *HATE* all "Virtual Feats"! My point was, the Ranger is already the weakest core PHB class, and people want to TAKE AWAY from it!

I agreed with most of your points, but not this one. (I never even thought about the balance skill :( )

We agree, you just haven't figured it out, yet! :D ;)
 

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