Does the swordmage marking power suck?

[bganon]

Also, I don't think it's fair to compare the mark-related class features alone. Fighters have great mark features, but I can't recall many powers that specifically interact with their marking. Swordmages, on the other hand, pretty much always have the option of taking an encounter attack that enhances their mark-related feature. Things like Transposing Lunge can make a swordmage's mark much more effective.

 

[korjik]

Speaking generically, there are three disadvantages to the Swordmage mark.

1. Very short range (2 squares)
2. Minor action to mark
3. Immediate action to use

No other defender mark carries all that baggage. Compared to those restrictions, the problem you describe doesn't bother me so much. In the case of the Shielding Swordmage, there really is no additional problem.

Actually, there is *one* problem, which is that I keep forgetting to remind my DM of the -2 penalty for the mark. Swordmage is definitely a "pay attention even when it isn't your turn" class.

This pretty much sums up the problems I have that cause this thread. Swordmage marking works quite a bit differently than the marking abilities of any of the other defenders. The 'on a hit' and the 'until used on another' are the biggest differences. It is the only permanent mark, and the only one that trips on hit instead of on attack.

I did point out that SM are good at harassing arty/controllers/bosses from a distance. It just seems to me that it is a bit off on how the mark works. At only close 2, you have to get pretty close to use it in the first place, and it seems to me that you could end up stuck near the marked guy quite easily, making harassment at range irrelevant.

Then there is the fact that teleporting next to someone in the back of the monsters could be a really good way to end up surrounded and hacked to bits. Avoidable if you are clever, but lethal if you are not.

I also thing that the *one* problem is prolly the biggest. When DMing, I dont remember the marks, and when playing, most of the time the players dont remember the -2 either. That is probably the first thing that needs to be adressed.

 

[Klaus]

The strength of the Swordmage's mark lies in the fact that you don't have to attack or engage its target to keep the mark. You can mark a target and then go and engage someone else for the rest of the encounter, knowing that anyone the target attacks has an effective +2 to all defenses. The fact that you can choose to teleport next to the target (or teleport the target to you) is a bonus. In essence, the Swordmage is a defender that doesn't get tied down.

The Fighter requires no action to mark, but the mark goes away if the target isn't attacked every round. Triggers an immediate action attack.

The Paladin requires a minor action, but must be adjacent to the target or attack it, or the mark goes away. Triggers damage (no action).

The Warden requires a minor action, has multiple targets and a couple of powers to enforce the mark.

 

[icedrake]

...the swordmage mark is rather amazing compared to the other classes. Mind you, I haven't played a warden or looked at it much, as my preference is clearly for the swordmage.

Firstly, the shielding mark is by far the strongest of the bunch. You sit back attacking other foes while the primary marked target just has his damage shut down unless its a striker.

The assault power is best when you have a second defender who can serve as the primary tank. You can mark a target that harasses your other party members, run off to hit some other guys then come back and smash the marked target.

Ensarement is something that has potentual, but I haven't played it yet.

Look at it this way, the fighter doesn't move at all. If his marked target isn't near him, he can't use it. Swordmage? Doesn't matter where the target is. I mean the cheese with Swordburst in the paragon tier with Polearm Gambit and Heavy Blade Opportunist is crazy good... add in mark of storm and energy admixture and rushing cleets, its just silly.

 

[Zaran]

The Warden requires a minor action, has multiple targets and a couple of powers to enforce the mark.

According to the compendium, Nature's Wrath is a free action. So they can mark multiple opponents and attack one of them with a str vs fort attack when they attack an ally. It sounds like the warden's marking ability is alot better than even the fighters ability.

 

[DracoSuave]

The thing to remember, most of the time that attack's likely gonna be a melee attack, which means it's VERY likely you'll then blink into a flanking position, giving you combat advantage, often with an encounter power that has multiple effects.

Not to mention, every time they trigger it, there's an escalating increase in the chance it hits if you take the right feat.

 

[Nytmare]

What I've noticed is that the three people I know who have played defenders spend a lot of time complaining about other defenders.

A fighter, a warden, and a swordmage, all played at different times, and each of them gripes when the marks of the other classes don't work like the marks of the character that they first learned how to use.

 

[Sanzuo]

It sounds like the warden's marking ability is alot better than even the fighters ability.

Yes and no. Wardens are great for marking a whole crapload of guys, and while they are great for giving enemies a lot of incentives for not attacking the warden's allies, only the fighter is the best at actually preventing the enemy from doing so.

I still think that fighters are the best defenders in that they keep enemies OFF of their allies.

Wardens are the best defenders because they get in the way and are effing hard to kill.

Paladins are the best defenders because of Certain Justice. (Please god nerf this power.)

Swordmages are the best defenders because of ??????

Actually I don't know if swordmages suck or if I just suck at swordmages. The one assault swordmage I built was a terrible defender. In the game I was playing monsters just attacked whoever they felt like, mark or no. When they did go for my swordmage he really didn't have the resilience to stand up to a focused attack. That guy went down a lot.

Since I built my warden however, I'm unstoppable and my allies are thanking me for it.

 

[DracoSuave]

well, to be fair, the Assault Swordmage is like the Two-hander fighter, or the Ardent pally... it's not about stopping attacks, but dealing damage for them. But, as for squishiness... there's no reason for you not to take toughness, durable, and such defensive feats. Your AC is plate-worthy (without disadvantage), and you have hps the same as any other defender except Warden. Assault's just not the 'stop attack' defender, but the 'punish attack' defender.

 

[Nifft]

IME, Shielding Swordmages are almost ridiculously good defenders. The Aegis of Shielding is basically the meanest thing you can do to a monster that doesn't require attack rolls or saving throws.

Assault Swordmages are a lot like crazy Fighters. The mark is very similar - except the swordmage can't control movement, but can teleport from 10 squares away, often into flanking.

Ensnaring, I'm still unsure about. I can't picture the tactics yet.

Anyway, if your swordmage is standing next to the target of his mark, he's doing it wrong. Their main perk is defending from a distance.

These words echo my own thoughts on the subject.

A Fighter can control most normal movement very well, but can be utterly screwed by a foe who can teleport, or who can be moved by one of his allies. Swordmagi laugh at such tricks.

IMHO the strongest Swordmage is the Shielding version, who marks one nasty dude and then runs away, leaving that dude with a hugely painful debuff -- or the option of eating OAs from the rest of the party while charging the Swordmage. This is a good illustration of the well-played Defender: giving his foe two options, both of which suck.

Cheers, -- N