D&D (2024) Does WotC view the Monk class as overtuned from their perspective?

[Clint_L]

The thing is the non-caster half of the Half-Caster sucks without the caster half, unlike the Eldtrich Knight or Arcane Trickster or Ranger or Paladin. You NEED your Ki to keep up the damage, but you NEED your Ki to keep up your defences... basically wasting your slots just to get up to the level of a basic Fighter. It's a stupid design.

That's the thing - a paladin without spell slots, for example, is still a great tank and strong combatant overall, with excellent utility. They can't nova, but they still have aura, lay on hands, lots of HP, a high AC, solid melee damage, channel divinity. A paladin is good enough without casting spells that they can basically save most of those spell slots up for when they need to nova, or when they roll a critical. A monk can't save up their resources.

 

[Undrave]

That's the thing - a paladin without spell slots, for example, is still a great tank and strong combatant overall, with excellent utility. They can't nova, but they still have aura, lay on hands, lots of HP, a high AC, solid melee damage, channel divinity. A paladin is good enough without casting spells that they can basically save most of those spell slots up for when they need to nova, or when they roll a critical. A monk can't save up their resources.

Yup. A Monk needs to be built with playability without Ki in mind before adding the Ki on top. I think having to pick between flurry of blow as a bonus or Dodge as a bonus action is already interesting enough a decision space without throwing a limited resource into the mix.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Does WotC view the Monk class as overtuned from their perspective?

I would assert that this title is too long.

My suggestion for a more accurate question:

Does WoTC view the Monk class?

 

[mellored]

Yup. A Monk needs to be built with playability without Ki in mind before adding the Ki on top. I think having to pick between flurry of blow as a bonus or Dodge as a bonus action is already interesting enough a decision space without throwing a limited resource into the mix.

So....

You can do one of the following as a bonus action. At level 2, you can enhance it by spending DP.

Flurry of blows: make an Unarmed Attack.
1DP: make 2 Unarmed Attacks.

Patient Defense: +2 AC until the start of your next turn
1DP: +4 AC

Step of the Wind: move 5' without provoking Opportunity Attacks
1DP: move up to your speed.

 

[tetrasodium]

So....

You can do one of the following as a bonus action. At level 2, you can enhance it by spending DP.

Flurry of blows: make an Unarmed Attack.
1DP: make 2 Unarmed Attacks.

Patient Defense: +2 AC until the start of your next turn
1DP: +4 AC

Step of the Wind: move 5' without provoking Opportunity Attacks
1DP: move up to your speed.

C: None of the above. Use the better version every turn and complain that you need a short rest every fight or two in order to keep up in order to wield the social contract as s club club any resistance from gm or player should they ever try to resist the excess.

The core design of the class is toxic to collaborative team gameplay & no amount of tinkering with abilities will change that as long as they continue to feed that toxic core

 

[mellored]

C: None of the above. Use the better version every turn and complain that you need a short rest every fight or two in order to keep up in order to wield the social contract as s club club any resistance from gm or player should they ever try to resist the excess.

The core design of the class is toxic to collaborative team gameplay & no amount of tinkering with abilities will change that as long as they continue to feed that toxic core

D&D has always been a game of managing resources. Nothing special about the monk.

If you want the class that can blow everything as fast as possible, you need to look at sorcerer.

Cast Scorching Ray and use Seeking Spell until everything hits.
Trade your low level spells for Bend Luck
Demand a long rest after 1 round of combat.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Does WoTC view the Monk class?

I think they put it off until the end, which was a mistake* as it is one of the classes that needed the most attention, but I don't think they don't know about the monk's issues. I just think they don't know what to do with it. Given that we know** that their design process is weighted towards survey-respondent approval/'feels right' over a formulaic balance, the audience's mixed feelings*** over the monk might be leading them to paralysis.
*assuming their goal is to get more people satisfied with the monk.
**at least partially
***this thread being a good case in point.

 

[tetrasodium]

D&D has always been a game of managing resources. Nothing special about the monk.

If you want the class that can blow everything as fast as possible, you need to look at sorcerer.

Cast Scorching Ray and use Seeking Spell until everything hits.
Trade your low level spells for Bend Luck
Demand a long rest after 1 round of combat.

What always was doesn't apply because 5e style short rests & short rest class design are awful design elements compounding in a way unique to 5e. No other edition had anything comparable

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Conversely, if you compare to rogues to again see them falling behind on damage, comparable on survivability in melee, but rogues always have the option of hitting hard with ranged attacks so can pick and choose when to be in melee, and monks have much less out of combat utility.

I think the rogue is ahead of the monk at level 5 with uncanny dodge regarding survivability and with cunning action ahead in mobility in most cases. The only thing going for the monk is stunning strike and independence of a second combatant. Maybe for a few rounds the monk is ahead or the shadow monk whenever they can use shadow step.

So I really appreciate the realization that the monk needs ki indemendent abilities.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think they put it off until the end, which was a mistake* as it is one of the classes that needed the most attention, but I don't think they don't know about the monk's issues. I just think they don't know what to do with it. Given that we know** that their design process is weighted towards survey-respondent approval/'feels right' over a formulaic balance, the audience's mixed feelings*** over the monk might be leading them to paralysis.
*assuming their goal is to get more people satisfied with the monk.
**at least partially
***this thread being a good case in point.

I don't think it was a big mistake. The monk is not that far from being decent. The new subclasses except for the open hand are decent. The idea to remove ki point costs is decent. It should not be that hard to remove them. Then add some damage feature at level 11 and we are looking at a useable class. And from level 14 on, it definitely has its niche as a very hard to disable class (all saving throw proficiencies with (possibly double) advantage for one ki point if needed).