D&D (2024) Does WotC view the Monk class as overtuned from their perspective?

[Vikingkingq]

You are missing my point. The class of course lacks features that 2024 got. But adding mastery features to unarmed strikes, like in the brawler subclass is an easy way to fix the monk.
Of course they are not in a good shape. But they have enough features that are all close to being good. Mostly dues to being either too ki intensive or competing for a single bonus action.

It is just not a class that needs a total overhaul. And since all other classes they experimented with are way closer to the 2014 books than in the first 5 playtests, missing those should be no big detriment for the monk.

Druid wildshapes and the ranger and the sorcerer and the warlock and the paladin were and still are way more difficult to overhaul, because they were partially in a need for nerfs (paladin smite novas) or a bigger revamps (sorcerer/ranger).
The monk just needs buffs, which going by all the discussion are way more easily accepted by 70+ percent (not surprising).

I agree, particularly about "the close to being good." The monk has a lot of the tools it needs already in its kit; the problem is that they're chokepointed on action economy and their resource pool, so they can't use a lot of their tools the way they're supposed to. Mostly, what the monk needs is to be able to Flurry and then choose a defensive option (either Patient Defense or Step of the Wind) as consistently as a Rogue Sneak Attacks and then uses Cunning Action.

That would get the Monk's damage and survivability up to where it needs to be. Now, there's other stuff that would be nice on top of that - a more elegant combination of Unarmed Strikes and Weapon Mastery so that it's not a nonbo, access to martial feats, etc. - but that's more in the territory of "this would be nice to have" than "this is needed for the class to be functional."

 

[Mephista]

You are missing my point.

I... don't think I am. I think I'm just outright disagreeing with you. Your suggestions are hitting maybe a quarter of my concerns. That's not enough for a pass from me.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I... don't think I am. I think I'm just outright disagreeing with you. Your suggestions are hitting maybe a quarter of my concerns. That's not enough for a pass from me.

Ok. Then we just disagree.

 

[Clint_L]

I agree, particularly about "the close to being good." The monk has a lot of the tools it needs already in its kit; the problem is that they're chokepointed on action economy and their resource pool, so they can't use a lot of their tools the way they're supposed to. Mostly, what the monk needs is to be able to Flurry and then choose a defensive option (either Patient Defense or Step of the Wind) as consistently as a Rogue Sneak Attacks and then uses Cunning Action.

That would get the Monk's damage and survivability up to where it needs to be. Now, there's other stuff that would be nice on top of that - a more elegant combination of Unarmed Strikes and Weapon Mastery so that it's not a nonbo, access to martial feats, etc. - but that's more in the territory of "this would be nice to have" than "this is needed for the class to be functional."

As I have previously proposed, you could make the monk much better very simply:

1. Let them add their wisdom bonus to their discipline points pool.
2. As part of the attack action, they can make additional unarmed attack.
3. Flurry of Blows: They can spend a di point to FoB to turn their extra unarmed attack into two unarmed attacks.
4. Stunning Strike: they can spend a di point attempt to stun with their extra unarmed attack (they must choose between this or FoB).
5. As a bonus action, they can spend a di point to use Step of the Wind.
6. As a reaction, they can spend a di point to use Patient Defence.

That gives them enough di points right from the start to keep up much better, or they can blow a bunch in one round if things get desperate. And these are not dramatic changes to the underlying mechanisms, but the choke point (everything working off the bonus action) is gone. Plus, stunning strike now has a reasonable choice to compete with.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

As I have previously proposed, you could make the monk much better very simply:

1. Let them add their wisdom bonus to their discipline points pool.
2. As part of the attack action, they can make additional unarmed attack.
3. Flurry of Blows: They can spend a di point to FoB to turn their extra unarmed attack into two unarmed attacks.
4. Stunning Strike: they can spend a di point attempt to stun with their extra unarmed attack (they must choose between this or FoB).
5. As a bonus action, they can spend a di point to use Step of the Wind.
6. As a reaction, they can spend a di point to use Patient Defence.

That gives them enough di points right from the start to keep up much better, or they can blow a bunch in one round if things get desperate. And these are not dramatic changes to the underlying mechanisms, but the choke point (everything working off the bonus action) is gone. Plus, stunning strike now has a reasonable choice to compete with.

I think I don't like di point cost for patient defense as a reaction. Compared to the new bladeward it sucks. Why not just remove that cost?

 

[Garmel]

Any word when playtest 9 with the monk is released?

 

[mellored]

the choke point (everything working off the bonus action) is gone. Plus, stunning strike now has a reasonable choice to compete with.

Combining the ideas..

Level 1
As a bonus action, you can

• Make an Unarmed Attack
• +2 AC
• Move your Unarmed Movement (5' at level 1) without provoking.

* basic abilities that don't require DP

Level 2
Once per turn you can spend 1 DP do one of the following.

• When you that the Attack action or make an Opportunity Attack
• Dodge
• Dash and Disengage

Deflect Blade: Reaction, reduce melee damage by ??? If reduces to 0 you can spend 1 DP to disarm.

Level 3:
Deflect Missiles: Reaction, reduce ranged damage by ???

Level 4:
Slow Fall: Reaction, reduce fall damage by ???

*would be really simple if all the Reactions decreased damage by the same amount.

Level 5:
Stunning Strike: bonus action, 1DP, Con save (no to-hit roll)
You can now spend 2 DP per turn, but must be on different features.

Level 11:
you can spend 3 DP per turn.

Level 17:
you can spend 4 DP per turn, and can use the same feature twice.

 

[Undrave]

That's a good point. Part of the monk's problem is that the Fighter, and particularly the Champion, is too strong*.

The Champion is designed as the "beginner" class. Nothing fancy, just dishing out good damage. If it were a class in World of Warcraft, it'd be a class that just has an auto-attack ability, but that auto-attack deals real good DPS. And then you get the monk, where the player needs to jump through all sorts of hoops and spend limited resources just to deal damage comparable to the Champion. And then the monk player wonders "Why am I doing all that stuff just to be a worse fighter?"

That said, I don't think numerical supremacy is the way to go for the monk. If I were designing the monk from scratch, I'd probably want to make it a martial controller-type, inflicting various debuffs when hitting targets – weak ones by default, but maybe being able to spend discipline points for stronger ones.

* Relative to the monk, that is. It's still weaker than most casters.

I was thinking a Monk without ki should basically perform, in terms of damage with only their fists, similarly to a Rogue with a short sword who gets sneak attack because an ally is nearby and not from advantage, with probably options for spreading their damage the Rogue doesn’t get.

Basically, stable solid damage without working too hard at it, but with room for optimization.

 

[James Gasik]

Or perhaps a Monk without ki should perform like a Warlock without Pact Slots.

 

[Mephista]

Maybe they should Perform like a bard! Get on that stage and dance!