D&D (2024) Does WotC view the Monk class as overtuned from their perspective?


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Clint_L

Hero
Oh, I like combining deflect missile and deflect blade into one thing. Then it would actually be useful! I would make it automatically cost a di and get rid of the counterattack part, or maybe allow that for another di.
 

I could easily see putting the monk at a 1d10 hit die instead of 1d8. Some are comparing it to the fighter, but I'd actually consider it more like the ranger (which also tends towards a Dex/Con/Wis stat build). Most monk-like concepts that I can think of (monk/ronin/jedi/etc) tends towards a high resilience. Certainly more than the rogue, which puts more effort into avoiding being hit in order to survive.

Figuring out how much damage the monk "should" do is rather difficult. I haven't worked out a complete power budget system, so the best I can do is compare DPR with other classes I've put into spreadsheets.

I tried a few experimental ideas in the spreadsheet. Giving FoB a total of 3 strikes instead of 2 starting at level 11 was one possibility, and another was just giving monk a second extra attack at level 11 (like fighter, and the warlock's UA7 Thirsting Blade). On the one hand, increasing the FoB attacks gives you the increasing H2H die size even if you're using a normal weapon for basic attacks. On the other hand, increasing basic attacks means you get them even if you use your bonus action for something else. Overall, I think I'd prefer a second extra attack rather than changing FoB.

Either way, monk is still weaker than other martial classes, but it puts it closer, and close enough that the various other tactical options are more justified in making up the difference. More importantly, it gives a damage bump at level 11, where currently monk has basically no improvement in damage from level 8 to level 16 aside from a single martial arts die size bump. Having no damage output improvement over the entirety of tier 3 (and a good chunk of tier 2) seems like the second main issue monk has.

As for the low-level stuff, in the toss-up between "free" DP usage (eg: limited versions of abilities at level 1) and more DP, I think I'd lean more on the more DP side (+Wis mod points, most likely). Alternatively, give a Font of Magic-like ability to convert another resource to more DP. Perhaps you can sacrifice a hit die for more DP (probably a fixed amount, like 3 DP). After all, sorcerers can sacrifice spell slots for more SP when they want more SP to use class features.

This kind of demands a better understanding of the power budgets being applied to the various classes, though. I'm still trying to get a handle on that.
 

Oh, I like combining deflect missile and deflect blade into one thing. Then it would actually be useful! I would make it automatically cost a di and get rid of the counterattack part, or maybe allow that for another di.
Why are you so keen on adding di costs for abilities that cost reactions anyway?
 

Clint_L

Hero
Why are you so keen on adding di costs for abilities that cost reactions anyway?
Because balance. Deflect missiles is barely used so it doesn't matter. But it is actually a pretty potent damage reduction when does happen, and granting it for free against melee attacks would be a whole other kettle of fish. If monks could use it every turn for just a reaction they definitely would, and I think it would be way too powerful.

For example, at level 3 it would have the potential to be an 11.5 HP damage reduction every turn. That's pretty amazing for a reaction, especially since reactions so often go unused.

Another way to look at it is: would players still use it if it cost 1 di? And I think the answer is still yes - it might not be automatic, but it would definitely get used often.
 
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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Because balance. Deflect missiles is barely used so it doesn't matter. But it is actually a pretty potent damage reduction when does happen, and granting it for free against melee attacks would be a whole other kettle of fish. If monks could use it every turn for just a reaction they definitely would, and I think it would be way too powerful.

For example, at level 3 it would have the potential to be an 11.5 HP damage reduction every turn. That's pretty amazing for a reaction, especially since reactions so often go unused.

Another way to look at it is: would players still use it if it cost 1 di? And I think the answer is still yes - it might not be automatic, but it would definitely get used often.
So kick it up to level 5 where it can coexist with Uncanny Dodge. Monk damage reduction being better in general than the Rogue's is fine in my book (though the Rogue is likely better at soaking up LOL crits from monsters that chuck a lot of dice, like the giant ape's 14d6+4 rock throw).
 

Clint_L

Hero
So kick it up to level 5 where it can coexist with Uncanny Dodge. Monk damage reduction being better in general than the Rogue's is fine in my book (though the Rogue is likely better at soaking up LOL crits from monsters that chuck a lot of dice, like the giant ape's 14d6+4 rock throw).
But, again, if it just costs a reaction does it become an automatic choice? i.e. not a choice at all? In most situations it will more or less equal cancelling one hit against the monk every turn. That's a pretty strong ability, and I think it would be too strong. I'd definitely be interested in seeing it play tested. I could be wrong.

Imagine you're a fighter or barbarian dueling a monk with this ability: the monk wins, pretty much automatically, at least until very high levels when the fighter can supernova. But at low levels, where the game is mostly played?
 

mellored

Legend
Because balance. Deflect missiles is barely used so it doesn't matter. But it is actually a pretty potent damage reduction when does happen, and granting it for free against melee attacks would be a whole other kettle of fish. If monks could use it every turn for just a reaction they definitely would, and I think it would be way too powerful.
You could split the difference.

As a reaction, reduce damage equal to your Proficiency bonus. (Same as Heavy Armor Mastery)

1 DP to make it Proficiency + monk level. If it reduces damage to 0, you disarm / return fire.

I also still want some kind of reaction movement.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
But, again, if it just costs a reaction does it become an automatic choice? i.e. not a choice at all? In most situations it will more or less equal cancelling one hit against the monk every turn. That's a pretty strong ability, and I think it would be too strong. I'd definitely be interested in seeing it play tested. I could be wrong.

Imagine you're a fighter or barbarian dueling a monk with this ability: the monk wins, pretty much automatically, at least until very high levels when the fighter can supernova. But at low levels, where the game is mostly played?
I mean, Uncanny Dodge only costs a reaction. Is it an automatic choice for Rogues?

EDIT: also, the game isn't really balanced around the idea of PVP.
 

Clint_L

Hero
I mean, Uncanny Dodge only costs a reaction. Is it an automatic choice for Rogues?
Pretty much! And this would be significantly more powerful in the vast majority of situations.
EDIT: also, the game isn't really balanced around the idea of PVP.
No, but trying to illustrate how strong being able to use it just off a reaction would be. You can substitute "ogre" or whatever for "fighter or barbarian."

Not that it matters much since this is just us spitballing, anyway. The core idea is really cool - I love it. If it ever happened, then balance would have to be looked at.
 

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