D&D (2024) Does WotC view the Monk class as overtuned from their perspective?

Yes, I agree; though it wouldn’t help the monk much overall, it would be a nice little quality of life improvement.
I never said that this would be enough. As I said often enough in this thread and elswhere: the monk needs a bit more help. But in my opinion some resource upgrades, some damage upgrades and some quality of life changes here and there (making them less bonus/attack action independend) along woth the improvements to subclasses would make the monk perfectly viable.
 
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mellored

Legend
I think allowing flurry as a bonus action for 1 ki even after doing different stuff than attacking seems a good idea.
I see no reason it needs to be attached to both the attack action and bonus action. One or the other would be fine.

And I still kind of like the dance bard idea.

Flurry of Blows: When you expend a use of your Discipline Point as part of an action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction, you can make one Unarmed Strike as part of that action, Bonus Action, or Reaction.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
You are never switching the shield... why would you, you only need one hand for all your Light Nick weapons.
I really doubt it's RAI.

But with the current wording you can attack with a rapier+shield, swap to a dagger+shield, and nick.
Oh, I see. Since nick lets you make the Light weapon attack “as part of the Attack action,” and the Attack action says you can equip or unequip one weapon when you “make an attack as part of this action,” nick functionally gives you an extra equip/unequip that you wouldn’t normally get from dual wielding. I’m not sure that can actually be fixed without requiring that the other light weapon be held in your other hand, which is annoying for thrown weapon builds…
 

This is something i have been thinking about a lot, and kinda is a serious thought i had, that some would see as crazy! but hear me out, as i feel it contextualizes their weirdness about the monk.

I think there is a chance that they view the monk is a little overtuned, mainly because...well with enough Ki...what cant it do compared to other martials?

No seriously with Ki, they can basically get an extra action to attack as much as a fighter, dodge as a bonus action which increases their defensives by quite a bit, do everything a rogue can do except maybe hide, and on top of this all of the other stuff from subclasses such as casting spells such as darkness and more if your a four elements monk.

This class can do everything every martial can do as a bonus action for the cost of 1 point of a resource they can actively recover, in which we know that in their own words, they balance classes in encounters assuming they are at their best.

Now some people may look at this and say, well their damage then! it sucks, its dpr is too low.

And this is true to extent, but what if we go into another perspective we know they have, Virtual damage! We know they value conditions seemingly as "virtual" damage, stuff that counts as basically doing extra damage due to the power of the effect on hit. And monk has a lot of on hit effects, even the basic monk Open Hand, on hit can immediately proc one of these effects, such as knocking prone(which is strong because in melee it just guarantees advantage for the rest of the attacks a big DPR boon, hence the nerf in 1DnD), among other things.

This goes into Stunning Strike, which for 1 ki gives a chance to stun a target. How much is this worth in virtual damage? Well its hard to gauge, not many spells do this condition, but it can be that much lower then Paralyze which they seem to value around a second level spell, and it cant be worst then a 1st-level spell. So pretty powerful all things consdiered, on average that about 13-14ish "Virtual damage" possibly. And also something they can actively proc with every hit. That is a lot of virtual damage, all things considered.

Some people like to underestimate the power of this ability, I feel it is geniunely overpowered. Some might balk at this idea, but thats because Monk is considered a weak class. But Monk being a weak class and Stunning Strike being an overpowered ability are not mutually exclusive.

But pair this feature which they value as virtual damage, and real "nova" power here, which they value in balancing their game. And we again, know they balance the game around characters at their best, not after X amount of encounters, but assuming that this monk is at their best and using all of its features and ki as much as it can...

From that perspective, what can monk not do that every other martial cant do? It must be seen as some super jack of all trades class, that for 1 ki can do things other classes can do, while also being a stun machine in exchange for damage. Its only real weakness is defenses from that perspective. Even then, with dodge and its mobility to run away and basically kite almost anything, that can be worked around.

And i think, is what im arguing here. WoTC's perspective on it is probably not far from this, hence why they are very careful with any buffs or changes the Monk recieves. Because its not about the resource, they probably see that as super easy to get back and recovery, and they assume it is walking into any serious fight at their best or close too it, while also being able to do all of this. And from that perspective Monk would be seen as more a bit overtuned, as this weird martial that for 1 Ki point, can do almost anything a martial can, with Ki being its only limit in a encounter.

TLDR. WotC might view the Monk as a bit overtuned, looking at the knowledge we know from their perspective on how they balance the game around classes at their best, virtual damage, and what they have said about how they value these bonus actions to do things that would normally be a action, as basically a extra whole action basically. From their perspective(not saying they are right), they may view the monk as quite a bit stronger then what we see it as. As with Ki points, a recoverable resource which they made easier to recovery, they can basically do whatever every other martial can do and more(except maybe barb) with Ki being their only real limitation.
I am absolutely certain that WotC's design decision makers, specifically Jeremy Crawford thinks that all unarmed attacks and natural weapons and unarmoured or natural AC are drastically more powerful than they actually are.

I don't think it's a Stunning Strike thing or anything. I think it's really unarmed/natural weapons and unarmoured/natural AC which is what is causing the problem here. See for example, the design of the Brawler Fighter in the previous playtest packet - it had bizarre limitations, which from a balance perspective, made no sense, like it got a Bonus Action unarmed attack every round, but it wasn't allowed to use it as an attack, only a grab or shove. Nonsensical. It also didn't do very much unarmed damage.

Likewise feats allowing unarmed damage allow very low values, but WotC acts like they're dangerously powerful.

Similarly most races with natural weapons seem to be balanced as if the natural weapon was something serious and powerful, not a bad joke that most classes got literally zero use out of in their entire career.

There's nothing we can do about this - and I'd bet money that when Crawford is no longer in charge of D&D, this abruptly changes on the next edition or version or whatever.
 

I mean...yes..?

Ever been ambushed at night in game? Sucks to be a Paladin in that situation, speaking from experience.
These are situations, which, in normal games, occur between never and once in a dozen sessions. Acting like unarmoured AC and stuff like natural weapons or unarmed damage are significantly valuable is just rejecting the reality of D&D play. Easily 99% of the time in D&D, and I mean that literally PCs will have their "correct" AC in combat and will be using their chosen weapons.

WotC's own adventures reflect this, note. They're not full of situations where the PCs are disarmed or unarmoured and then forced to fight, in the way they'd need to be to remotely justify the insane value levels WotC's design puts on unarmed/natural weapons and unarmoured/natural AC.
 

Absolutely. He has to be running non-stop ambushes, prison breaks and stripped naked diplomatic talks.

Once again though, we see the martial double standard. Cantrips are way better than the ribbon tier natural weapons, and they aren't back to d3 damage like in 3E. Maybe he has every other encounter in one of those anti-magic zone the caster apologists are always talking about (which have appeared in exactly 0 published WOTC adventures).
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Absolutely. He has to be running non-stop ambushes, prison breaks and stripped naked diplomatic talks.

Once again though, we see the martial double standard. Cantrips are way better than the ribbon tier natural weapons, and they aren't back to d3 damage like in 3E. Maybe he has every other encounter in one of those anti-magic zone the caster apologists are always talking about (which have appeared in exactly 0 published WOTC adventures).
I think that there is another much more frightening possibility. Back in 3.5 there were a lot of monster feats set aside for the GM to use on their monsters. Most of the "monstrous" races with a natural weapon like claws and bite could qualify for a good number of those. Having a racial claw or bite attack seems to be valued on a level that starts making sense if you assume those feats are permitted by it. Of course we all know that those feats are not an option for the version of 5e that wotc published.

Wrt cantrips specifically, they are far too good as a character Level self scaling unlimited attack and should have been linked to nonscaling wands/staves/etc at least
 

Horwath

Legend
I am absolutely certain that WotC's design decision makers, specifically Jeremy Crawford thinks that all unarmed attacks and natural weapons and unarmoured or natural AC are drastically more powerful than they actually are.

I don't think it's a Stunning Strike thing or anything. I think it's really unarmed/natural weapons and unarmoured/natural AC which is what is causing the problem here. See for example, the design of the Brawler Fighter in the previous playtest packet - it had bizarre limitations, which from a balance perspective, made no sense, like it got a Bonus Action unarmed attack every round, but it wasn't allowed to use it as an attack, only a grab or shove. Nonsensical. It also didn't do very much unarmed damage.

Likewise feats allowing unarmed damage allow very low values, but WotC acts like they're dangerously powerful.

Similarly most races with natural weapons seem to be balanced as if the natural weapon was something serious and powerful, not a bad joke that most classes got literally zero use out of in their entire career.

There's nothing we can do about this - and I'd bet money that when Crawford is no longer in charge of D&D, this abruptly changes on the next edition or version or whatever.
yeah, unarmed strike is like extra tool or simple weapon proficiency extra. So, next to nothing in value.
if unarmed is 2d6 from start, then we can talk about it being worth something.

natural armor needs to be useful when you carry armor also:
I.E:
natural armor; 13+dex or +1 AC when you use armor you are proficient, whatever is higher.

monk should be:
light armor proficiency+shields
AC: 10+dex+wis+shield or 10+dex+light armor+shield+half wis(round down)
 

yeah, unarmed strike is like extra tool or simple weapon proficiency extra. So, next to nothing in value.
if unarmed is 2d6 from start, then we can talk about it being worth something.

natural armor needs to be useful when you carry armor also:
I.E:
natural armor; 13+dex or +1 AC when you use armor you are proficient, whatever is higher.

monk should be:
light armor proficiency+shields
AC: 10+dex+wis+shield or 10+dex+light armor+shield+half wis(round down)
Yup. This sort of approach would be much more sensible, and actually quite reflective of how it's tended to work in other editions of D&D and other RPGs, ones which weren't mortally terrified of unarmed/unarmoured stuff. Monks not having even light armour proficiency is fairly bizarre and conceptually limits an already excessively conceptually limited class even further (excluding concepts like the Japanese Sohei - sure you can do them as Clerics or Paladins or whatever, but it's so weird to have ultra-orientalized "Monk" class which still manages to only really be "Shaolin", despite other Asian warrior monk traditions).

Natural weapons should mostly be finesse, too - honestly I think they all should be even if it doesn't 100% make "realistic" sense (again, we let halflings use 2H swords etc.) so there's at least a CHANCE a PC could make use of them, because far more PCs have a decent DEX than a decent STR, across all PCs.

A lot of this gets negotiated at the table, but it's like, that's only happening because WotC are irrationally terrified of these things. It's such a weird hang-up and very 5E-specific.
 

yeah, unarmed strike is like extra tool or simple weapon proficiency extra. So, next to nothing in value.
if unarmed is 2d6 from start, then we can talk about it being worth something.

natural armor needs to be useful when you carry armor also:
I.E:
natural armor; 13+dex or +1 AC when you use armor you are proficient, whatever is higher.

monk should be:
light armor proficiency+shields
AC: 10+dex+wis+shield or 10+dex+light armor+shield+half wis(round down)
I think tortles 17 AC is worthwhile, provided their shells can be enchanted. For everything else it should be at least 13+ dex to match mage armor and be an actual benefit over studded leather.

While I know it would never happen, I do wish it followed the PF2E model a bit more, and added proficiency to AC. Rather than everyone getting the exact same proficiency bonus once proficient, it allows for granularity with trained (+2), expert (+4) master (+6) and legendary (+8). Monks start with expert unarmored defense, so add 4 to their AC. They also have a stance for strong monks that doesn't allow Dex to AC but gives a large AC buff, letting you make something like a sumo or other big beefy tough guy. Would be nice to have stronk monks!
 

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