Dominate question

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

When a PC is dominated, they are still treated as an ally (for instance, you can heal them, give them saving throws, etc, with any powers that affect allies). They are not treated as enemies for the purpose of things like opportunity attacks.

So, one question and one weird comment that came up in-game, when a PC was dominated for a round.

Can a dominated PC still travel through allies' squares? Can an ally choose not to let them through?

And the comment - one player was very unhappy his character couldn't take opportunity attacks against the dominated PC (figuring it was better to drop them than let the PC potentially kill a healer).

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Can a dominated PC still travel through allies' squares? Can an ally choose not to let them through?

I'm AFB at the moment, but aren't allies/enemies in the eye of the beholder according to RAW? In other words, if player A doesn't want the dominated PC getting to the cleric, I think it's simply a matter of declaring that the dominated PC is an enemy and therefore subject to OAs and the Impassable Enemy effect.

The dominated PC doesn't get to re-declare allies and enemies, of course, due to the rules of that condition. I think.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm AFB at the moment, but aren't allies/enemies in the eye of the beholder according to RAW? In other words, if player A doesn't want the dominated PC getting to the cleric, I think it's simply a matter of declaring that the dominated PC is an enemy and therefore subject to OAs and the Impassable Enemy effect.

The dominated PC doesn't get to re-declare allies and enemies, of course, due to the rules of that condition. I think.

There's no RAW really. The rules talk about allies and enemies but they never define how those relationships are determined.

The most accepted logic AFAIK goes something like this:

A creature cannot simply declare itself to be the ally of another creature because that would clearly let you game the system (IE gaining advantages from things that apply to another creature's allies, etc).

A creature can declare itself to be an enemy of another creature. There's no special advantage to doing this, and it makes sense. If you decide to attack someone, they're an enemy. I don't know of a way to game this, as being someone's enemy doesn't generally let them do anything FOR you.

A creature cannot declare another creature to be its ally. Again there things you could do to game the system this way (IE being able to force move your allies for instance).

The logical conclusion of this is that 2 creatures have to mutually agree to be allies, but one creature can unilaterally declare itself to the be the enemy of another.

The question is then how and when would you be able to change these declarations. The other question is whether or not there is anything BESIDES enemy or ally. The rules don't define any 3rd category, although a few obscure passages do mention 'bystanders'. IMHO a PC could decide another dominated PC is an 'enemy', and could make that determination as desired and without any input from the other PC, but they would both have to agree to become allies again. I think ultimately this is one of those "you'll know it when you see it being gamed".

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

That makes complete sense.

After searching a bit thru the PHB, I did discover a couple of interesting tidbits though. First, page 57 specifies that an ally must be willing. (As Abdulalhazred says.) And then it defines 'enemy' as anyone who's not an ally. (Whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not.) So friendly townsfolk can safely be presumed to be allies, but there's a lot of potential gray area when it comes to suspicious/unfriendly/apathetic NPCs.

Second, I went over the section about moving thru occupied spaces on page 283. And man have I been using some accidental house rules! First, you can move thru helpless enemies and enemies who are two sizes bigger or smaller than you are. It then goes on to say that otherwise, moving thru an enemy's space provokes an OA.

Somehow I missed all that the first time, so I've been thinking that by RAW, enemy spaces are iron-walled and impassable. Do'oh!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That makes complete sense.

After searching a bit thru the PHB, I did discover a couple of interesting tidbits though. First, page 57 specifies that an ally must be willing. (As Abdulalhazred says.) And then it defines 'enemy' as anyone who's not an ally. (Whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not.) So friendly townsfolk can safely be presumed to be allies, but there's a lot of potential gray area when it comes to suspicious/unfriendly/apathetic NPCs.

Second, I went over the section about moving thru occupied spaces on page 283. And man have I been using some accidental house rules! First, you can move thru helpless enemies and enemies who are two sizes bigger or smaller than you are. It then goes on to say that otherwise, moving thru an enemy's space provokes an OA.

Somehow I missed all that the first time, so I've been thinking that by RAW, enemy spaces are iron-walled and impassable. Do'oh!

I don't know about an 'otherwise'. Moving into an enemy's space ALWAYS provokes an OA (by definition, you exiting a space adjacent to that enemy perforce). You can't enter the space of enemies at all unless they meet the helpless/size criteria though, so not sure what the otherwise is about. A medium creature cannot enter the space of a small, medium, or large enemy at all.

The funny thing with that statement about 'any non-ally is an enemy' is it sort of works, but sort of doesn't. Most of the time it doesn't matter, but for instance there are situations where you can get a benefit based on allies that are nearby and meet other criteria or something like that. Now and then that would be weird or just a bit gimmicky. At the same time it is generally weird to treat bystanders as enemies, and again similar things can come up that are gimmicky ways to take advantage of it. Then there are a couple cases were a power actually mentions bystanders, but if everyone is either friend or enemy then there are no such things... lol. Like most corner case things in 4e it will only come up once in a blue moon though.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I don't know about an 'otherwise'. Moving into an enemy's space ALWAYS provokes an OA (by definition, you exiting a space adjacent to that enemy perforce). You can't enter the space of enemies at all unless they meet the helpless/size criteria though, so not sure what the otherwise is about. A medium creature cannot enter the space of a small, medium, or large enemy at all.

The text is somewhat confusing to me: "You normally can't move thru an enemy's space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you. Moving into a nonhelpless enemy's space provokes an OA from that enemy..."

Does that mean that as a halfling, I can move thru both KOed orcs and living ogres at whim, while moving thru a living orc provokes an OA? Or does it mean that I can move thru KOed orcs at whim, while moving thru living ogres provokes OAs, and I just can't move thru living orcs?

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

A halfling is two sizes smaller than an ogre and can move through the ogre's space, but provokes opportunity attacks as normal.

ANY creature can move through the space of any other helpless creature.

The halfling could not move through the space of an active orc because the size difference is one.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

Doesn't prone alter this a bit? I mean, you can actually stand in a square with a prone creature, right? Of course if it was an enemy, they would get the OA...

Pretty sure I read that in the Compendium somewhere...

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Doesn't prone alter this a bit? I mean, you can actually stand in a square with a prone creature, right? Of course if it was an enemy, they would get the OA...

Pretty sure I read that in the Compendium somewhere...

Even if it's not RAW, I think it's a reasonable house rule.

(Of course, I also think that moving thru any enemy's space is a reasonable house rule -- if you're willing to risk the OA while granting CA.)

 

[strmwndgmr]

I'm AFB at the moment, but aren't allies/enemies in the eye of the beholder according to RAW? In other words, if player A doesn't want the dominated PC getting to the cleric, I think it's simply a matter of declaring that the dominated PC is an enemy and therefore subject to OAs and the Impassable Enemy effect.

The dominated PC doesn't get to re-declare allies and enemies, of course, due to the rules of that condition. I think.

According to Compendium Dominated creatures retain their original allies and enemies. So RAW you can't stop dominated PC from moving through other PC's square and even though the enemy now wants dominated PC to move through theirs they can't.