Don't let the sword hit you on the way out!

[Water Bob]

and I think I might add the entering threatened squares granting an AoO BUT if the attacker does that they cannot move that round, unless they have spring attack (yay for spring attack!)

I think, if such a rule was added, that there'd need to be a possibility of a hole opening up in the foe's defenses.

I picture two combatants, swords out, facing each other, moving around each other, looking for that right moment to strike.

The question is how to do this mechanically. On the first round, when the foe is flat-footed, that is definitely and opening.

But, what about on later rounds? It seems like there could be some kind of check (Appraise?) that allows a character to find the best moment to strike.





This would be a neat mechanic (thinking outloud here): Two combatants square off, neither willing to jump in and risk the AoO from the other.

As a free action (or maybe it should be a standard or a move action?), a character rolls an Appraise check (Appraise to best guess when to enter into combat). His foe does not yet roll his Sense Motive check in answer to the Appraise roll. Therefore the player must decide, on the strength of his roll, without yet seeing what his enemy rolls in response, whether to keep circling his enemy or dash in and make an attack.

Once the player decides to attack, the foe immediatly rolls Sense Motive against the players Appraise throw. If the foe wins, he still gets his AoO. If the payer wins, the character has successfully found a hole in his opponent's defenses and exploits it.

That's kinda neat, huh? Maybe the actual skills uses should change, but I like the uncertain action. Sounds fun.

 

[Water Bob]

where?

I know about the Feat. Unsure of it's D&D face, but in the Conan RPG, it's called Hold Ground. Requires a CON 13+ and Endurance.

I'm still intrigued about making it a standard rule for the game. I think that's worth some investigation.

I also like how, with this one little tweak, reach weapons all of a sudden have a real place in d20 combat.

 

[anest1s]

I think, if such a rule was added, that there'd need to be a possibility of a hole opening up in the foe's defenses.

I picture two combatants, swords out, facing each other, moving around each other, looking for that right moment to strike.

The question is how to do this mechanically. On the first round, when the foe is flat-footed, that is definitely and opening.

But, what about on later rounds? It seems like there could be some kind of check (Appraise?) that allows a character to find the best moment to strike.





This would be a neat mechanic (thinking outloud here): Two combatants square off, neither willing to jump in and risk the AoO from the other.

As a free action (or maybe it should be a standard or a move action?), a character rolls an Appraise check (Appraise to best guess when to enter into combat). His foe does not yet roll his Sense Motive check in answer to the Appraise roll. Therefore the player must decide, on the strength of his roll, without yet seeing what his enemy rolls in response, whether to keep circling his enemy or dash in and make an attack.

Once the player decides to attack, the foe immediatly rolls Sense Motive against the players Appraise throw. If the foe wins, he still gets his AoO. If the payer wins, the character has successfully found a hole in his opponent's defenses and exploits it.

That's kinda neat, huh? Maybe the actual skills uses should change, but I like the uncertain action. Sounds fun.

Some possible combinations:
Attacker-Defender
Bluff- Sense Motive (and lets call it mini-faint)
Sense Motive-Sense Motive
Tumble-Spot (not what you proposed)
Dexterity-Wisdom
Dexterity-Dexterity
Spot-Sense Motive


The problem with appraise...is that its about appraising items (except if we accept that a crafter can appraise when to make an Aoo the same way he appraises the value of a chamber pot )

I use reach weapons to get aao from enemies that come to attack me (when they leave the threatened space to come next to me) so I can't really see much difference...except that with this change if I trip them they end up 15 ft away not 10 ft.

Other than that, lets remember that fighters have low skill points.

 

[Water Bob]

The problem with appraise...is that its about appraising items (except if we accept that a crafter can appraise when to make an Aoo the same way he appraises the value of a chamber pot )

It's main purpose is about appraising items, but in the Conan game, there are examples of the skill being used to appraise other things--even foes in combat.

What I don't like about using Appraise is that warriors will get the skill only for the combat useage and not for it's main purpose. Thus, we'll have a lot of soldiers walking around who know more than the thieves do about priceless items.

Another skill should be chosen.

I use reach weapons to get aao from enemies that come to attack me (when they leave the threatened space to come next to me) so I can't really see much difference...except that with this change if I trip them they end up 15 ft away not 10 ft.

Good point.

 

[lordxaviar]

wow... im so not going to read all of this... hurt my kobold brain after the fourth post... anyway... I hate AoO.... I never remember them, my players occasionally remember them, usually not a prob as the next round would have killed them anyway.. screw it...guess my house rules dont really include them...lol

 

[Water Bob]

... I hate AoO....

There's something about the term "Attack of Opportunity" that doesn't sit well with people. I remember when I first saw 3E. AoO's were so confusing.

Then, when I started calling them "Free Attacks", I saw the confusion un-cloud in my players' eyes.

I don't know what it is about calling a "Free Attack" an "Attack of Opportunity", but there's definitely something there. People seem to automatically "get" the term "Free Attack". "Attack of Opportunity" always needs further explaination and always seems more complicated than it is.

never remember them, my players occasionally remember them,

I don't know about D&D, but the Conan game makes them pretty simple. If you move out of a threatened space, you draw a free atta...um, excuse me, I mean to say that you draw an Attack of Opportunity.

The second rule is if you do anything other than concentrate on the combat, you draw a free attack--I mean, AoO.

So, if you're casting a spell or pulling the draw string on a bow, you're not actively defending yourself because you're doing something else. Pow. Free Attack.

You can do two things at once as long as you can still actively defend yourself. So, if you drop a weapon, no Free attack. If you pull a new weapon from your belt, no Free Attack.

But, when you sheath your sword, you've got to look down and fiddle with getting the blade into its socket. You're not concentrating on defending yourself, so, bam, free attack.

It's all pretty simple and logical. Conan only uses those two Aoo rules: Moving out of a threatened square and the question of whether your action keeps you from concentrating on your defense.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

. . . and the question of whether your action keeps you from concentrating on your defense.

This alone, when looked at cumulatively listed out what is and what isn't something that keeps your from concentrating on defenses, seems so arbitrary at times that saying this way as you had above is not actually helpful to knowing when it happens. To me it still feels like one needed to memorize a list of circumstances.

I don't favor eliminating AoOs, but I do favor eliminating many circumstances where it was applied in 3.x.

 

[Water Bob]

This alone, when looked at cumulatively listed out what is and what isn't something that keeps your from concentrating on defenses, seems so arbitrary at times that saying this way as you had above is not actually helpful to knowing when it happens. To me it still feels like one needed to memorize a list of circumstances.

Out of curiosity, which AoO's don't make sense to you?

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Enter foe's square: Yes
Start grapple (involves entering foe's square): Yes
Bull rush (involves entering foe's square): No
Overrun (involves entering foe's square): No​

Each involve entering a foe's square, but it is not obvious why these do or don't

Unarmed attack: Yes
Unarmed attack (with Imp. Unarmed Strike): No​

Understandable, the feat makes your unarmed strikes "weapons". But doesn't it "make sense" that a character with this feat also be allowed to start a grapple without provoking?

Use Spell-like ability: Yes
Use Supernatural ability that is the same effect as a spell-like ability: No​

Uh huh. The handwavium that is supernatural ability again . . .

Extinguish flames: No
Light sunrod: Yes​

Um. Without water, extinguishing takes a lot of effort, but a sunrod ignites when struck on a rough surface, to me these should be reversed . . .

5-foot-step: No
5-foot-step (if your movement only allows 5 feet of movement): Yes​

*whatever* Maybe no one remembers this tidbit, but it's there. I favor the simplicity that all 5-foot-steps don't provoke, period.

Stand up: Yes
Mount horse: No​

*sigh*

Escape from a grapple: No
Escape from a net: Yes​

If I think about it a while I guess, but it is not immediately obvious if you know escaping a grapple doesn't . . .

Sheathe a weapon: Yes​

But why should it if I have Improved Unarmed Strike?

Pick up an item: Yes
Close a door: No​

If we're going with whether you are distracted from defending yourself, not sure why these should be different from each other.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

There's something about the term "Attack of Opportunity" that doesn't sit well with people. I remember when I first saw 3E. AoO's were so confusing.

Then, when I started calling them "Free Attacks", I saw the confusion un-cloud in my players' eyes.

I don't know what it is about calling a "Free Attack" an "Attack of Opportunity", but there's definitely something there. People seem to automatically "get" the term "Free Attack". "Attack of Opportunity" always needs further explaination and always seems more complicated than it is.

Weird; AoOs never seemed confusing to me. Well, some of the circumstances that provoke them can be hard to remember, but the term makes perfect sense to me. In play I often say "free attack" too simply because it's four less syllables than "opportunity attack." Er, sorry, I mean it's five less syllables than "attack of opportunity."

Clearly AoOs cause confusion with a lot of players, but the concept is very straighforward to me: you get a free attack when an enemy moves away because he's turning his back on you. He's giving you the opportunity to take a parting swipe, in other words. (As opposed to when he 5 foot steps away, which is the 'dancing about' you mentioned.)

That said, I'm all for experimental house rules, so let us know how it works out for you!