Don't make me roll for initiative.........again

[werk]

Okay, it's not whining (although it sure sounds like it to me). It's also not a fact. It's a contrived scenario pulled out of a hat to "prove" something. In more than 20 years of playing every version of D&D there is, the contrived scenario above has happened so often that I cannot clearly recall a single instance of it. So, while it may have happened, it certainly didn't happen "a lot."

I find that to be really improbable. Are you sure you roll init every round?

Unless everyone rolls the same result every round, someone is going to get two actions back to back. Maybe you play a low powered game, and those actions don't really matter?

 

[Mark Chance]

The rolling initiative makes it much harder to plan a head, and a more deadly game.

So? Harder to Plan + More Deadly does not equal Bad Rule.

Improved initiative and the like also give a false sense of worth. It's not actually that benifical to go first all the time.

It's not beneficial to go first all the time if one doesn't reroll initiative every round.

 

[Bagpuss]

and if it doesn't happen frequently what's the point in rolling initiative each round, if you get the same order anyway?

 

[Mark Chance]

I find that to be really improbable. Are you sure you roll init every round?

The implication being what? I'm lying? I'm incapable of remembering things? Or maybe the limitations of your experience don't define the reality of mine?

Unless everyone rolls the same result every round, someone is going to get two actions back to back.

Of course. I never said anything different. What I did say is KarinsDad factual scenario about TPKs happening "a lot" because of rolling initiative every round isn't factual and doesn't happen a lot.

Maybe you play a low powered game, and those actions don't really matter?

Or maybe not. Maybe things were just as I say they were.

 

[erc1971]

Hear, hear.

My last D&D game used this variant rule (which for old-schoolers like me really isn't a variant; it's the way the game was played for quite a while). How many problems did it cause? Absolutely zero.

I admit, part of the reason I like rolling every round, is because I have been playing that way since 1980 - seemed kinda wrong to not roll init every round. And like you, our group has had zero problems with this variant (have played under DM's who rolled only once - things turned out the same either way, just less random.)

Go back and carefully read the posts. Almost every single objection boils down to this: "It makes my character less powerful! That's not fair! And what about this? I might have to be creative and 'adjudicate' something!"

Hmm, I think a better way to put it is...D&D 3.x has changed the way people look at D&D. Now, things are all about planning. How many people plan out thier character, deciding what feats, PrC's, etc. you will take way before you ever get to that level? Even I am guilty! Now, you get people into this mindset of planning everything in a nice orderly manner, and throw the chaos and turmoil of init every round (which is probably more like real combat - CHAOS!) - thier brain snaps...order...order...order...chaos?! They plan everything about thier character, get into a nice orderly mindset, now that planning is thrown out the window, they have to react - completely changing thier chain of thought by 180 degrees.

D&D 3.x is unlike any other game out there - they provide semi-strict guidelines on treasure you should have, what monsters the party should be fighting at thier level, etc., etc. Everything is laid out in a very purposeful line - random initiative is just that - Random - it shakes things up, and when you have been used to a straight and narrow line - your first instinct is to cry foul - that is the way the human mind works.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

There is a reason the Time Stop spell doesn't allow you to attack the characters that are stopped. There is a reason that Hold Person allows for multiple saves but spells that don't (such as Otto's Irresistable Dance) doesn't just outright hold you and have a shorter duratation.

All of these are allowed for the PC (or NPC) to 'have a chance' to do something. The characters will have a chance to react to the Time Stop. They will see magical effects, summoned creatures and the like. Five fireballs on top of each other are not fun.

They get a save for Hold Person in between rounds. Attackers still have to attack a character showing off their dance moves. This gives the subject of the spell a chance. Maybe they will break out of the hold or maybe the attackers will miss. That is why Hast was changed, to give the opponents of the spell a chance. I like having a chance to react before my PC dies horribly. I like letting the badguys react to my stuff as well. I find that it makes it more of a game and I find that more interesting than wondering if I'm going to face mutiple Fireballs and Lightning Bolts before I get to roll.

I'm a player and I would voice concern about this rule because I'm playing to have fun and I don' t think getting wailed on multiple times before I get a chance to react is fun. I view this like being grappled by an opponent that has more than +20 more than I do. I have no chance against them. Being grappled like that isn't fun.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Except that it is worse. Demonstrably so, and several posts in this thread show why. Your posts simply state the opposite, with no proofs, or rules to say why it is not worse.

Sorry, but I haven't seen anything in this thread that does anything of the sort.

The idea, for example, that re-rolling Initiative prevents teamwork is absurd. The high-Init guy just holds action until the low-Init guy is ready.

All this option does is add some uncertainty, and hence some tension, to the combat experience. There may be some variable effects on magic -- spells might last seconds longer or less long (oh noeses!), but IME this has never caused an issue, at least not for my players or in my game. It may cause a slight shift in your tactics, but again that's sort of an artificial boogeyman at best.

OTOH, the added tension made combats more fun in my group at least, and made the players focus more on what was happening when it wasn't their action. For that reason alone, I call it a positive rule change for the players.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Here's another consequence of this system--everyone who wants to cast a "1 full round" casting time spell will delay until the very end of the round every time because they have absolutely no reason not to delay--going early just means more chances to be smacked, and delaying means a halfway-decent chance to finish the spell at the beginning of the next round before any enemy gets to act.

As with the CDG, the question becomes, So?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Not too sure how this turned into a 'rerolling initiative each round is a bad rule' deal..

In previous incarnations this was the normal way to do it. There are advantages... combat is more chaotic, players are less likely to only poke thier heads in for there turn.

There are disadvantages, longer real time to handle combat, potential of double-taps. NPC's are often clumbed on one initiative to avoid rolling for each character type.

There are features; variable spell durations

With cyclic initiative, the 3.x standard, you have:
Advantages, orderly progression that can be planned for, intiative manipulation that adds a layer of strategy

Disadvantages; players can more easily ignore the game until its almost thier turn {and join in with a 'what happened?'

Features; with the use of flash cards, tracking who is when easy. You can have individual initiatives for the NPC's without slowing down the game.

IMHO the cyclic method is much better for the game than re-rolling each round. YMMV.

However, one thing I do really like about rolling init every round, is you don't have everyone ready an action against the caster, then keep thier spot in the initiative order the rest of combat - meaning everytime the caster goes to cast, 5 people instantly slaughter him!

This is an erroneous reading of the ready action. Those 5 people end up in the initiative order before the caster's turn..not on his turn. If they want to disrupt another spell they need to ready again. Once the initiative roll is done, the numbers used become moot. Its the order of the characters that is important.

This is easiest seen when using initiative cards to keep track of combat.
At the start of the encounter, you stack the cards in order of initiative. As each characters turn is completed, you flip their card to the bottem of the stack. A 'End of Round' card handily tracks those anything that needs to know how many rounds have passed, and cards for spells/summoned critters can keep track of durations and remind you of when damage occurs
When someone readies an action, you turn the card sideways. If the readied action triggers, you pull the card out of the stack and put it on top.. handle the action..then flip to the next card to continue the interupted round.
Delays are pulled from the stack and set to the side until the player wishes to act. They are then slipped in behind the top card, going after whomever is currently acting.

I use 3x5 cards, and preroll initiative for my NPCs. Similar creatures are bundled on one card..so the necromancer, his pet wight, and his 15 skeletons are on 3 different cards. I have the pertinent combat info on the card itself, making it much easier to handle NPC combat actions. It takes some extra prep-time on my part..but this helps make the combat more role-playing focused than 'look up stats, roll dice, repeat' focused.

Anyway.. I like Random, I like Chaos.. I also like my combats to run smoothly so I can get to the more entertaining part of the game sometimes called roleplaying. For me, cyclic initiative helps me achieve this. I would not cry foul if a DM wanted to use the variant rolling every round..but I would hope that DM is not doing it simply because he/she doesn't want to try the newfangled, orderly deal.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Round one: The PCs win init, so they move closer to the enemy. The NPC Wizard fireballs the PCs.

Round two: The NPC Wizard wins init, so he fireballs the PCs. Not a single PC could react to the first fireball to either heal, take cover, counterattack, or anything.

Most of the PCs are dead and the few other NPCs quickly mop up the heavily wounded Barbarian.

Then the PCs are idiots or the NPC wizard is omniscient. Why didn't they have their own wizard fireball the NPC wizard the first round? Why didn't they use archers? Why didn't they bloody well spread out as they approached?