D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

It's very convenient you keep ignoring what I say about what they're doing now.


Never played it; don't know anything about it except for the animation errors in the first game. I didn't even know they were in RDR2 until people started saying that the Pinkertons are these poor innocent people not like how they're depicted in it, WotC did nothing wrong, waah, go buy their books.


Unless you could illegally spying on people who are trying to form unions.


Then why did WotC deal with the distributors first? Or why seize the cards right then and there, instead of waiting until they had found out which distributor it was, then getting the cards back? For that matter, if "WotC is remaining quiet about that," how do we know they were actually stolen by anyone in the first place instead of released by accident?


DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE THE BEST PEOPLE FOR THE JOB TO GO AFTER AN INDIVIDUAL INSTEAD OF A COMPANY. Since we're shouting and all.


Are these private firefighters spying on or trying to sabotage union-makers?

Why do you keep insisting I have a "Wild West" image of them when I keep referring to things they've done within this century? Even a couple of years ago. Not 150 years ago.

Honest opinion time?

I think some of y'all think that we're judging you for buying D&D books and so are looking for any excuse to make us into the bad guys or to claim we're stupidly uninformed, so you don't have to feel judged.

I mean, seriously, what's your endgame here? "WotC did nothing wrong, so it's dumb of you to 'throw away your books'"?

Ah the union busting scandal where the pinkertons reported how many people were going to union meetings and tracked union activity via publicly posted on facebook and instagram. If any laws were actually broken can you provide a link? Wait what am I talking about you can just declare something and not do any research because PINKERTONS. I'm pro union and I'm not defending amazon's morals here in any way I just don't think this is the major scandal you're making it out to be. So when you claim a company is a blazing inferno of evil I take it with a grain of salt and actually found the article on businessinsider.com that explained what happened.

A shipment of cards was either stolen or mistakenly sent out so wotc went to the largest detective company in the world to find out what happened. If you ever bothered following up on the actual facts of the case you'd know that even the person that showed off the cards thinks the whole incident was blown way out of proportion. In addition the statements on the podcast don't mention that he had been contacted multiple times and had never replied. But don't let details like that stop the outrage machine.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Poor Pinkertons. So misunderstood...

If only it were possible for them to change their name.

Remember Blackwater? They had a huge controversy when hired to quell dissent in New Orleans after Katrina and then act as a mercenary company in Iraq (with critics saying they operated outside the military code of conduct).

So they changed their name. Twice.

If the Pinkertons has this terrible reputation for strike breaking, why not let go of the name?

Unless that reputation is valuable to them.
Their actual reputation is pretty good these days with corporate culture circles. I am not feeling sorry for them. They're just a semi-big corporation with all that comes with being a semi-big corporation these days. I have no feelings about them. I do however appreciate accuracy in describing actual specific individual humans that are pretty normal but being described as evil for dramatic reasons by fantasy fans.

It's fantasy fans who are all dramatic about them for the most part these days. Search Pinkertons on YouTube and it's mostly people cosplaying 1800s stuff.
 

Have you missed the multiple threads on this very forum talking about the MM? There's one thread that has 113 pages in it atm. Enough information has been revealed to have an informed opinion on it.
Yep im aware... Not enough to judge the entirety and usability of an entire book vs an entire book. Especially the usability part... you know because we'll we'd have to see the book...being...used.
 
Last edited:

While this is absolutely true, how many DMs really do that? There are frequent discussions and even arguments over whether or not a particular monster acts or even looks a certain way canonically. Heck, look at all the arguments over alignment, with some people being dead set against removing it because "how will they know how the monster is supposed to act?" (An actual argument I've had given to me, since I'm anti-alignment.)

This is because most DMs go by what's in the book rather than make up their own interpretations. Maybe they like the official interpretations, or they might not have the time and energy to worldbuild, or might fear they can't do a good enough job, or might not want to have to constantly have to tell their players, "I don't care what the book says, in my world, this monster is ABC instead of XYZ."

So for most DMs, having tables of lore, signs, activities, names, etc., is extremely useful.

Most DM's homebrew... that includes monsters. Some lore cool... a ton most aren't going to use or only use once... not cool. It's pretty simple.
 

Ah the union busting scandal where the pinkertons reported how many people were going to union meetings and tracked union activity via publicly posted on facebook and instagram.
You do know it's illegal for companies to spy on union meetings, right? If they were hired by the companies to go to those meetings, that's an illegal act.


A shipment of cards was either stolen or mistakenly sent out so wotc went to the largest detective company in the world to find out what happened.
And again, one with a really bad reputation.

"They only have that reputation because of RDR2!"

So? They're capitalizing on that reputation. They're not trying to get away from it, like by rebranding.

I mean, when most people think of Coca Cola, they don't automatically think "it used to be made with cocaine." Most people don't freak out if you own a Ford car because Henry Ford was a nazi. Because those companies made efforts to bury their less-than-savory past.

If you ever bothered following up on the actual facts of the case you'd know that even the person that showed off the cards thinks the whole incident was blown way out of proportion.
So?

I do think it's a bit odd that he went from saying "they forced their way in" and "they were very intimidating" and "threatened me with jail time" to "everything is all hunky-dory, totally blown out of proportion."

Was Cannon just lying then? Seems odd, since he'd be biting the hand that feeds his source of revenue.

If you insist that the sources who initially reported it were lying or simply inaccurate, how can you also insist that the current sources you're getting your info from are honest and accurate? How do you know they're not just hopping on the trend of "those people were wrong, here's what really happened, if you don't believe us, you're dumb"?

I don't listen to podcasts/watch YouTube for reasons involving lack of time and ADHD. If you have a written source of your information, that would be good.

In addition the statements on the podcast don't mention that he had been contacted multiple times and had never replied. But don't let details like that stop the outrage machine.
Yes, I've read that WotC said that, even in the earliest reports--the ones you claim were blown out of proportion. I guess they were correct in that one instance that makes WotC look good, yes?

Mind, I haven't seen anything that said they left messages or sent emails or a certified letter that they could use to support that claim of theirs. Did they? All I've seen is "calls went unanswered," and in this day and age, who answers the phone if they don't know the number?

I mean, in a big deal like "you may have received stolen property," you'd think WotC would want a paper trail. Because without one, it looks like they made the most half-keister'd attempt ever before they sent in the big guns.
 

Yep im aware... Not enough to judge the entirety and usability of an entire book vs an entire book. Especially the usability part... you know because we'll we'd have to see the book...being...used.
We can see entire pages, though, like this one:

1737139165970.png


(I've seen the two-page spread--the next page goes to gelatinous cube.)

Compare to the Monstrous Menagerie:
1737139249721.png


1737139303543.png

So we can judge these two monsters together and decide which one has more useful information.

And since there have been several monsters whose entire statblocks we can see, we can compare them to LU or other monster books from other companies.

And then we can extrapolate about the entire book and decide if it's worth the money.
 

We can see entire pages, though, like this one:

View attachment 393300

(I've seen the two-page spread--the next page goes to gelatinous cube.)

Compare to the Monstrous Menagerie:
View attachment 393301

View attachment 393303
So we can judge these two monsters together and decide which one has more useful information.

And since there have been several monsters whose entire statblocks we can see, we can compare them to LU or other monster books from other companies.

And then we can extrapolate about the entire book and decide if it's worth the money.
Usability...not stats. That's something that plays out with longterm usage and getting feedback as people use the books in their entirety in the contexts of their games. It's not just comparing one stat block to another.

Edit: as an example how do you determine which has better usability... tables or a listed treasure until we see over games which one provides a better experience for more people?

Edit 2: Even looking at your stats... how are we determining better usability? The fact that I can more easily identify the stat block at a glance in the MM section is the only thing that jumps out at me without actual play experience.
 
Last edited:

Here we go... MM isn't even out yet but you had to disparage it for...well I'm not sure for what particular purpose in this post but hey it's your ( mostly uninformed) oppinion.
Let me be clear. First, this is not “disparagement”. Second, people are allowed to hold opinions you don’t share, and they are allowed to have opinions about D&D which aren’t unqualified stanning. If you don’t agree with somebody, politely say why; you do not get to try to silence them. This forum has its fair share of people who love D&D, and people who don’t, and even people who dare have a nuanced opinion, and they are all entitled a voice.
 

Usability...not stats. That's something that plays out with longterm usage and getting feedback as people use the books in their entirety in the contexts of their games. It's not just comparing one stat block to another.

Edit: as an example how do you determine which has better usability... tables or a listed treasure until we see over games which one provides a better experience for more people?

Edit 2: Even looking at your stats... how are we determining better usability? The fact that I can more easily identify the stat block at a glance in the MM section is the only thing that jumps out at me without actual play experience.
WOTC isn't sharing these stat blocks out of the goodness of their heart (and I guess that means I hope they have disclaimers in each article saying they have a financial interest in releasing these stat blocks) but to drum up interest / encourage people to buy the monster manual, suggesting that WOTC at least feels these stat blocks are enough for people to make a buying decision based on (and indeed I've seen a number of posters day they want to get the MM based on the art and statblocks shown, including myself - probably first MM I've been excited to get since 3e, rather than one i just needed to play the game) , so I think completely fair that some people will look at the stat blocks and determine that it isn't usable enough for them.
Otherwise you seem to be suggesting no one should be buying the MM until some poor guinea pig as bought it and played using it for say 6 months or so before determining whether they should get it. The number of pre-orders already in place suggest many people aren't going to wait for that sort of info before purchase, so can only rely on information provided to date.
 

Then why did WotC deal with the distributors first?

They didn't know where in the chain things had happened. It's only from that very investigation (the investigation you earlier claimed didn't happen as you repeatedly said they had no investigators) that they eventually tracked what happened.

Or why seize the cards right then and there, instead of waiting until they had found out which distributor it was, then getting the cards back?

Because when you locate stolen goods as part of an investigation you of course get them right away before they're further distributed, of course. I am not even sure why you'd question it?

For that matter, if "WotC is remaining quiet about that," how do we know they were actually stolen by anyone in the first place instead of released by accident?

We don't "know" we just "strongly suspect" based on the information I mentioned earlier. Corporations don't comment on criminal investigations, nor do the police, generally speaking. Even after they're done, there is only liability that comes from commenting on such details and very little benefit to a company. I don't think we will ever know for 100% certain exactly what happened.

DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE THE BEST PEOPLE FOR THE JOB TO GO AFTER AN INDIVIDUAL INSTEAD OF A COMPANY. Since we're shouting and all.

I'm not sure. Pinkertons are one of the largest, and it's not like there are a huge number of major companies that can field-track stolen good and figure out where in the supply chain there was a breach very quickly. They may well be the best people for that kind of job. It's certainly not a job for a local private investigator, given time was of the essence.


Are these private firefighters spying on or trying to sabotage union-makers?

Why do you keep insisting I have a "Wild West" image of them when I keep referring to things they've done within this century? Even a couple of years ago. Not 150 years ago.

My friend, if you look back, it's you who used the term "wild west" and not me. I was just repeating the phrase you chose to describe your own position. What I said was you specifically have the wrong impression about their non-protection departments. You repeatedly claimed they don't have investigators when that's not just false but it's probably their largest department these days. You repeatedly described events relating to their Protection departments when you knew at that point this matter had nothing to do with their Protection departments. You seemed to be doing it as an emotional appeal; apparently thinking if you can describe some portion of their company doing something bad recently then all parts of their company must be bad. Kind of a strange emotional appeal, given we're discussing D&D, where everyone understands Hasbro Toys is not the same as the D&D department of WOTC.

Honest opinion time?

So which part I just replied to was what you'd characterize as something other than your honest opinion?

I think some of y'all think that we're judging you for buying D&D books and so are looking for any excuse to make us into the bad guys or to claim we're stupidly uninformed, so you don't have to feel judged.

I have not implied you're stupid or a bad guy and if anything I said seemed like I was implying that I apologize. I don't think you're stupid or bad, I just disagreed with your opinion. Nor do I care what you think of me buying D&D books. Why would I? I'm guessing you don't care what I buy either. That seems a strange claim to make.


I mean, seriously, what's your endgame here? "WotC did nothing wrong, so it's dumb of you to 'throw away your books'"?

I do think this incident was messed up and have said so before. My end game is for people to make at least a vague attempt to try and describe it more accurately, that's all. This sub-thread of the thread started when someone accurately (IMO) said the Pinkertons incident was overblown and exaggerated. You then jumped in and, again IMO, wildly exaggerated it in the very manner that had just been characterized. You made inaccurate claims it didn't involve investigators when it did, that it directly involved the kind of people who bust unions when it did not, and that this was some sort of intentional intimidation and shake-down when the victim didn't describe it that way.

That's it. My end game is just trying to persuade people to not wildly exaggerate this incident because they emotionally dislike WOTC. You and I are both gamer nerds. And, usually, it comes with that territory to desire for things to be at least someone accurate. The rest of social media and such might go for all the fake news and clickbaiting headlines and wild exaggerations for attention, but us gamer nerds (which includes you and I) usually try to be better than that.

Sorry for the very long point by point post. I think I've said my last on the topic. Feel free to have the last word.
 

Trending content

Remove ads

Top