Don't underestimate the Bard

[Kestrel]

+3/+3, good for you. That's showing them. I agree with your "shout out" completely. Eberron you say? Which books. You see, WotC designer know the bard class sucks and have been trying ti fix it via a host of supplementary material for years now. The cost if I want to play an effective wizard? The price for a PHB. An effective bard? Well over $200 as per prior posts.

Eberron Campaign Setting. One feat. $39.95. And if the GM or Players have been reading these particular threads, they can use the feats for free!

While I agree the Bard is not as central as say, the cleric, the fighter, or the wizard, hes a decent sub for the Rogue or a fifth member. YMMV of course.

 

[satori01]

Blah Blah Blah I HATE BARDS Blah Blah Blah Blah Must Spend Money to Make Bards Good

Given your responses in past I think I summarized your position well There is something unsatisfying about the design of the Bard...personally I think the Spell Casting is too weak and Bardic Music should be :
1) A swift action to start
2) Bards as a class should get the ability to have multiple songs going and to switch between Bardic Music uses, w/o taking PrCs.
3) Rather than every Bard getting the same Bardic Music, Bardic Music selection should be customizable, ie a list should be available w/ differing powers.

That said, in my secondary, evil campaign the power of the Bard is downright scary. A Bard without scrupples, willing to manipulate anyone....and using creative uses of Diplomacy, Bluff, Fascinate, and Charm Person can avoid alot of trouble.

I have been loosely running the Savage Tide Adventure Path, and the Bards ability to bypass, disguise, confuse and manipulate the humanoid opponents in the Lotus head quarters was amazing.
How she role played to convince the group to split the loot was even more so

As one player said it, the Bard is awesome, until the shooting starts.
Personally I think being able to control the terrain is one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

 

[jeff37923]

The bard is a jack of all trades, but a master of none. As long as players remember that, then its all good.

A lot of the comments in this thread centered on combat, which bards are not the best at - they can help, but they are not combatants by design. If not using their song to buff the party, they are best in combat at doing those "extra" tasks like protecting the offensive spellcaster, dragging injured out of harm's way, and watching the fighter's back. These aren't popular duties, but they make the difference between dead PCs and live PCs in a group.

The bard's flexibility makes them excellent for those one-on-one adventures where its only the DM and one player. Depending on the spells chosen, you've got a healer, combat spellcaster, pseudo-rogue, and almost fighter rolled up into one innocuous package. (How is that old saying? "Oh, its only a bard, can't possibly be a threat." Bard players can use that to a devastating advantage!)

Bards are meant to be for roleplaying encounters, so use them for those! Instead of a combat encounter with an intelligent foe that the bard can communicate with, let the bard try and talk them out of fighting. The CR for the encounter will be close to the same and it'll give a chance for some roleplaying. The only catch is that the bard will have to be in character and try to talk to the NPCs, no "I'll just roll for Diplomacy or Intimidate and walk on by". Just because it is non-combat doesn't mean it isn't supposed to be challenging.

All in all, I've loved playing bards and think that they're the best class in the game.

As long as they're not gnomes.

( My hate of gnomes, know no limit. )

 

[Kwitchit]

This is surely the case because of the singing and artsy aspect of the bard.

That's just fluff. You can easily take Perform: Oratory and use your bard ability with inspiring speeches rather than "Bluff, Bluff, Bluff the Stupid Ogre". Winston Churchill clearly had Bard levels, and was using Inspire Courage over the BBC...

 

[Warren Okuma]

I agree, in a seven party group, kill the bard. Have all of the creatures concentrate their fire on the bard. And after the bard falls, pound the bard again, just to make sure. Then kill the cleric or druid.

 

[two]

Huh?

+3/+3, good for you. That's showing them. I agree with your "shout out" completely. Eberron you say? Which books. You see, WotC designer know the bard class sucks and have been trying ti fix it via a host of supplementary material for years now. The cost if I want to play an effective wizard? The price for a PHB. An effective bard? Well over $200 as per prior posts.

Further, to get your 9th level cool trick, you've had to spend feats and resources. Finally, the bard uses per level pays off, whereas it sucked at lower levels when you needed it most (sorry dudes, I already used bardic music twice today.)

If you were a cleric, you could heal the whole party twice over, spend hordes of undead away, and still deal more damage via spells all while enjoying a better armor bonus to your AC. If you were a wizard you have arcane spell power and versatility. If you're a thief you get all the same skills and more skill points. You're still outclassed. I am NOT saying I want to do any of this, I just want a similar level of power and general cool. Lots of bard players take pride in being able to overcome their handicap. I myself do it, but I'm not happy it is there.

So yes, given supplemental material a 9th level bard can do a trick that's worthwhile. I am happy for you.

Usually you can borrow a book or get the feat list from the web and figure out what it does. I have not spent money on supplements in ages. I don't pirate, I just borrow from friends. There is down time during games, and I flip through the books. Is this really a stretch?

The +3/+3 can be achieved at 3rd level with one feat (Song of the Heart) and one spell (IB). Actually you can get +3/+4 with a feat, a spell, and a instrument that boosts damage (GP cost trivial). You can do that 2-3 times per day at that level (3rd). By 9th you can do it as many times as you fight; almost certainly never more than 5 times per day.

Spending 1 feat is not really what I call a huge investment. Nor is a 1st level swift spell, particularly at levels >5.

If you are in a large party, like this bard is, you are directly doing +36 dam assuming everyone hits. That is not realistic. Let's say 50% of them hit. Your bard is doing 15 dam at worst per round. More importantly, you are creating hits that would have been misses (the bonus "to hit") which is actaully more crucial. Assuming at these levels that a hit does 15 points of damage, there is a 3/20 or roughly .15 chance that you will turn a hit into a miss (the guy rolled between 1-3 below what was needed to hit, but the bard bonus allowed a hit).

If everyone full attacks, which is a huge assumption, that is 17 attacks * 15 dam per attack * .15 = 38 points of damage. The bard "to hit" also helps with ranged touch attacks and the like.

So if everyone full attacks, the bard oes around 53 points of damage - not including the bard's own attack, which could be significant (an enchantment spell, archery, etc.). Let's add 10 to the total. Around 60.

Now, since everyone won't always be full attacking, the bard's contribution will be less most of the time (range, 30-60 probably). But the bard's damage will be the most consistent of all the PC's, and if you add it up at the end of the day... being responsible for 30+ damage every round of every battle will likely make you the unquestioned heavy hitter.

And of course after inspiring courage the bard can cast spells, heal, enchant, defend, etc. for 5 rounds, usually enough for the combat to end.

I've found that even in a party of 3, a Bard's damage output, when Inspire Courage is lightly optimized, matches that of a melee fighter - and the great thing is, it does not require an action after the initial inspire courage.

Plus, once in a while, the bard bonus makes a "disintigrate" spell a hit instead of a miss... these things are very significant and happen more often than you think. The critical that was a critical because of the bonus on the threatening roll.... etc.

 

[Chimera]

It's a darn shame that moderating software hasn't evolved to the point where Firebeetle can be prohibited from posting his standard anti-Bard trolling in threads completely without human intervention.

The alternative would be a little self-restraint, but other threads have shown the problem there.

 

[Chimera]

The +3/+3 can be achieved at 3rd level with one feat (Song of the Heart) and one spell (IB). Actually you can get +3/+4 with a feat, a spell, and a instrument that boosts damage (GP cost trivial). You can do that 2-3 times per day at that level (3rd).

(For the record, my GM owns the Eberron book. I do not. So much for the $$$, eh?)

As I'm doing with my Bard. +3/+3 at 3rd level is HUGE! Equal to the BAB of the Fighters, more than the BAB of everyone else, plus a whole bucket of damage all around. Even without the spell, it will still be +2/+2 because of the feat.

Again, for a low level group, that blows everything else out of the water. Makes the Cleric look at his wimpy Bless spell and suffer Bard Envy.

And of course after inspiring courage the bard can cast spells, heal, enchant, defend, etc. for 5 rounds, usually enough for the combat to end.

After Inspiring (Oratory, btw, which others have mentioned, not singing), my Bard pulls out his shortbow and goes to town. We've only had one combat go past the boost. As I have mentioned, I have more kills at 2nd level than any other member of the (large) group, because I've rolled well. Yes, even with a Shortbow (d6), BAB +1 and 14 dex.

So don't mess with my Bard!

And that's not even mentioning my +12 Diplomacy and +9 Bluff (at 2nd level).

 

[molonel]

The cost if I want to play an effective wizard? The price for a PHB. An effective bard? Well over $200 as per prior posts.

Ahahahahahaha!!!!

So true.

 

[Drowbane]

Don't underestimate the Bard..

Too late.

I've been tempted to roll up a Bard to try out that Stormsinger PrC in Frostburn. Anybody have any experience with it?