D&D 5E "Doom Sun" − reconstructing a 5e Dark Sun setting for the DMs Guild

[Faolyn]

Yep. That sort of begs the question, though, just how did they get enough power to break the sphere if they have no worshippers or power there? They were gone for thousands of years.

Possibilities:

• They weren't true gods (they may have been once, but aren't anymore) and therefore weren't dependent on worship for power.
• They used psionic power, tapping into the minds of everyone on the planet to draw it directly from them.
• They gathered worshipers from elsewhere and brought them with them or else managed to have a battery to store the worship-energy from before.
• They sacrificed themselves for the power.
• They sacrificed other gods for the power.
• They used an artifact of unimaginable strength, which may still exist somewhere--possibly within the black hole.
• Crystal spheres are like diamonds--hard and seemingly indestructible, but there's a weak spot that if you hit just right, the whole thing breaks. These gods knew where that weak spot is and didn't need as much power as it would otherwise seem.
• The sphere was breaking anyway; the gods just took credit.
• It was an accident; they were attempting to create a ginormous gate so they could draw the population/planet/system into an Alternate Prime. Instead, they created a black hole and cracked the sphere.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Possibilities:

• They weren't true gods (they may have been once, but aren't anymore) and therefore weren't dependent on worship for power.
• They used psionic power, tapping into the minds of everyone on the planet to draw it directly from them.
• They gathered worshipers from elsewhere and brought them with them or else managed to have a battery to store the worship-energy from before.
• They sacrificed themselves for the power.
• They sacrificed other gods for the power.
• They used an artifact of unimaginable strength, which may still exist somewhere--possibly within the black hole.
• Crystal spheres are like diamonds--hard and seemingly indestructible, but there's a weak spot that if you hit just right, the whole thing breaks. These gods knew where that weak spot is and didn't need as much power as it would otherwise seem.
• The sphere was breaking anyway; the gods just took credit.
• It was an accident; they were attempting to create a ginormous gate so they could draw the population/planet/system into an Alternate Prime. Instead, they created a black hole and cracked the sphere.

Or that gods don’t need worshipers for their power. That is how we roll in our game at least

 

[Maxperson]

Or that gods don’t need worshipers for their power. That is how we roll in our game at least

I don't do that, because as I said earlier in I think this thread, I want the gods(even the evil ones) to have a vested interest in helping their worshippers. Not needing worshippers let's them being jerks to everyone.

 

[Yaarel]

A close reading of a brief description of Doomspace in Spelljammer implies: The same "gods" that warred against the primordials are the same "gods" that destroyed the crystal sphere.

In other words, these astrals relate to the 4e "Dawn War".

The 4e Dawn War astrals, as such, seem to lack official existence in 5e. The DMs Guide mentions the list hypothetically as a "sample", an "example assembled from preexisting elements to suit the needs of a particular campaign".

The Dawn War appears to come after the draconic "First World" that 5e Fizbans describes. In the First World:

The dragons create the material plane, and its first world. The astrals invade the material plane, bringing humanoids with them, who colonize it. The humanoid creature type has a "dual nature", being simultaneously both astral and material. The astrals defeat Bahamut, Sardior flees, and Tiamat fights but eventually succumbs. The astrals trap Tiamat in the astral plane, in the LE Hells. Bahamut makes a treaty with the astrals, and relocates to the astral plane, to LG Celestia. Tiamat breaks free, launches into vengeance. But then somehow the draconic First World "sunders" into different worlds in the material plane. The planets of Toril (Forgotten Realms), Eberron, Krynn (Dragonlance), and Oerth (Greyhawk) canonically come into existence from this sundering. With uncertainty Sardior "shatters" becoming the gem dragons in each of these worlds.

Fizbans mentions the Dawn War in its discussion of the sundering of the First World. This implies, the Dawn War happens after the First World. So, chronologically:

1 dragons, 2 material plane, 3 First World, 4 sundering, 5 Fyreen, 6 primordials, 7 Dawn War, 8 crystal sphere, 9 eventually Dawn War gods destroy the crystal sphere.

The 5e DMs Guide refers to the 4e astrals as Dawn War. Some of these are officially part of the Forgotten Realms setting. Several Evil astrals − Bane, Lolth, Gruumsh, and Asmodeus − but also the Forgotten Realms astrals relating to dwarf, orc, and elf appear to be among those destroying the crystal sphere. The astrals relating to humans seem mainly from Greyhawk, albeit 4e has Bane as a central war leader.

By this time, Bahamut and Tiamat are part of the astral plane, so perhaps they too, alongside Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, are part of the war against the primordials of Fyreen.



DAWN WAR (FORGOTTEN REALMS)

BAHAMUT (Forgotten Realms)
TIAMAT (Forgotten Realms)

BANE (Forgotten Realms)
ASMODEUS (Forgotten Realms)
LOLTH (Forgotten Realms)
GRUUMSH (Forgotten Realms)
MORADIN (Forgotten Realms)
SEHANINE (Forgotten Realms)
CORELLON (Forgotten Realms)

Vecna (Greyhawk)
Tharizdun (Greyhawk)
Raven Queen (Wee Jas) (Greyhawk)
Kord (Greyhawk)
Pelor (Greyhawk)

Avandra
Erathis
Zehir

Torog (4e)
loun (4e)
Melora (4e)



Curiously, all of the astrals − both Good and Evil − work together to war against the elemental primordials of Fyreen in the material plane, also work together to destroy the crystal sphere, and perhaps the "Good" "gods" commit crimes against humanity against Fyreen.

 

[Maxperson]

A close reading of a brief description of Doomspace in Spelljammer implies: The same "gods" that warred against the primordials are the same "gods" that destroyed the crystal sphere.

In other words, these astrals relate to the 4e "Dawn War".

The 4e Dawn War astrals, as such, seem to lack official existence in 5e. The DMs Guide mentions the list hypothetically as a "sample", an "example assembled from preexisting elements to suit the needs of a particular campaign".

The Dawn War appears to come after the draconic "First World" that 5e Fizbans describes. In the First World:

The dragons create the material plane, and its first world. The astrals invade the material plane, bringing humanoids with them, who colonize it. The humanoid creature type has a "dual nature", being simultaneously both astral and material. The astrals defeat Bahamut, Sardior flees, and Tiamat fights but eventually succumbs. The astrals trap Tiamat in the astral plane, in the LE Hells. Bahamut makes a treaty with the astrals, and relocates to the astral plane, to LG Celestia. Tiamat breaks free, launches into vengeance. But then somehow the draconic First World "sunders" into different worlds in the material plane. The planets of Toril (Forgotten Realms), Eberron, Krynn (Dragonlance), and Oerth (Greyhawk) canonically come into existence from this sundering. With uncertainty Sardior "shatters" becoming the gem dragons in each of these worlds.

Fizbans mentions the Dawn War in its discussion of the sundering of the First World. This implies, the Dawn War happens after the First World. So, chronologically:

1 dragons, 2 material plane, 3 First World, 4 sundering, 5 Fyreen, 6 primordials, 7 Dawn War, 8 crystal sphere, 9 eventually Dawn War gods destroy the crystal sphere.

The 5e DMs Guide refers to the 4e astrals as Dawn War. Some of these are officially part of the Forgotten Realms setting. Several Evil astrals − Bane, Lolth, Gruumsh, and Asmodeus − but also the Forgotten Realms astrals relating to dwarf, orc, and elf appear to be among those destroying the crystal sphere. The astrals relating to humans seem mainly from Greyhawk, albeit 4e has Bane as a central war leader.

By this time, Bahamut and Tiamat are part of the astral plane, so perhaps they too, alongside Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, are part of the war against the primordials of Fyreen.



DAWN WAR (FORGOTTEN REALMS)

BAHAMUT (Forgotten Realms)
TIAMAT (Forgotten Realms)

BANE (Forgotten Realms)
ASMODEUS (Forgotten Realms)
LOLTH (Forgotten Realms)
GRUUMSH (Forgotten Realms)
MORADIN (Forgotten Realms)
SEHANINE (Forgotten Realms)
CORELLON (Forgotten Realms)

Vecna (Greyhawk)
Tharizdun (Greyhawk)
Raven Queen (Wee Jas) (Greyhawk)
Kord (Greyhawk)
Pelor (Greyhawk)

Avandra
Erathis
Zehir

Torog (4e)
loun (4e)
Melora (4e)



Curiously, all of the astrals − both Good and Evil − work together to war against the elemental primordials of Fyreen in the material plane, also work together to destroy the crystal sphere, and perhaps the "Good" "gods" commit crimes against humanity against Fyreen.

That was a lot of putting stuff together, but there are some major flaws.

First, nothing in the Doomspace write-up says "Dawn War." There could have been 10 million wars between different gods and across the cosmos.

Second, Asmodeus, Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, Gruumsh, Moradin, Sehanine and Corellon are not Forgotten Realms gods. They are gods that are multi-setting. It isn't FR that has absorbed them. It's they that have absorbed FR and other settings. The only FR god on your list is Bane.

Third, even if it was the Dawn War, the 5e gods involved do not have to be the same ones as 4e. Each edition makes changes to lore.

In short, if you WANT it to be the Dawn War and you WANT to involve FR gods, you can make it that way, but the default as of right now isn't that way. The default is mysterious war involving mysterious gods and mysterious primordials.

 

[Yaarel]

First, nothing in the Doomspace write-up says "Dawn War." There could have been 10 million wars between different gods and across the cosmos.

But Doomspace does say: "gods" versus "primordials", rather than "gods" versus "dragons".

Meanwhile, Fizbans mentions the "Dawn War", making it somewhat official.

It seems, the planet of Fyreen is part of this Dawn War.

Second, Asmodeus, Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, Gruumsh, Moradin, Sehanine and Corellon are not Forgotten Realms gods. They are gods that are multi-setting. It isn't FR that has absorbed them. It's they that have absorbed FR and other settings.

These astrals exist in the Forgotten Realms, including the astrals relating to the nonhumans.

The only FR god on your list is Bane.

Bane is significant in the Dawn War. According to 4e, he unites the other astrals against the material primordials.

Third, even if it was the Dawn War, the 5e gods involved do not have to be the same ones as 4e. Each edition makes changes to lore.

True. Because of conflicts about who created the material plane, whether dragons or elementals, 5e will probably have a different take on the Dawn War. But again, Fizbans does mention it.

In short, if you WANT it to be the Dawn War and you WANT to involve FR gods, you can make it that way, but the default as of right now isn't that way. The default is mysterious war involving mysterious gods and mysterious primordials.

Not too mysterious. These are 5e "gods" collectively who participated in a war against primordials, while the Dawn War is official.

Now in the 4e take, the primordials sought to destroy the humanoids. Thus the astrals eventually fought to save them from the primordials.

However, in Fyreen, the humanoids and elemental primordials seem to coexist. (Relatedly, in Athas, the elements are sacred.)

In 5e, the astrals interfere with this.

 

[Maxperson]

But Doomspace does say: "gods" versus "primordials", rather than "gods" versus "dragons".

What gods? What primordials? There are countless of each across the cosmos.

Meanwhile, Fizbans mentions the "Dawn War", making it somewhat official.

Sure. And Blood War. And the Orcgate War. And, and, and. Which of the many, many wars was this? Who says that there haven't been 12 different. Dawn Wars.

It seems, the planet of Fyreen is part of this Dawn War.

Pure assumption. It could have been one of countless wars of gods vs. primordials.

These astrals exist in the Forgotten Realms, including the astrals relating to the nonhumans.

And? That doesn't make them Forgotten Realms gods. FR gods are setting specific. Multi-setting gods are not a part of the FR. FR is a part of them.

Bane is significant in the Dawn War. According to 4e, he unites the other astrals against the material primordials.

4e is not 5e.

True. Because of conflicts about who created the material plane, whether dragons or elementals, 5e will probably have a different take on the Dawn War. But again, Fizbans does mention it.

Sure, which means that it probably happened. Or maybe 10 of them happened. The 4e Dawn War involved the Points of Light setting. Nothing I read about it involves any other settings. Perhaps every setting had its own Dawn War and the Athasian gods lost theirs to unknown primordials

Not too mysterious. These are 5e "gods" collectively who participated in a war against primordials, while the Dawn War is official.

No. Nothing in Fizban's says all the gods took part. Hell, nothing in Fizban's says the Dawn War ever happened. What Fizbans' says is...

"In the Dawn War pantheon described in the Dungeon Masters Guide Bahamut is revered as a god of justice and nobility, favored by palainds, while Tiamat is known as a god of greed, wealth and vengeance."

That doesn't say the Dawn War happened. It's just a reference to the Dawn War pantheon mentioned in the DMG, which says explicitly that it's a 4e pantheon. 4e. Not 5e.

You are assuming that the Dawn War happened, despite Fizban's not saying or implying that it did. And you are assuming that if it did, the 5e list of gods is the same as 4e, which isn't said anywhere in 5e.

 

[Yaarel]

No. Nothing in Fizban's says all the gods took part. Hell, nothing in Fizban's says the Dawn War ever happened. What Fizbans' says is...

"In the Dawn War pantheon described in the Dungeon Masters Guide Bahamut is revered as a god of justice and nobility, favored by palainds, while Tiamat is known as a god of greed, wealth and vengeance."

That doesn't say the Dawn War happened. It's just a reference to the Dawn War pantheon mentioned in the DMG, which says explicitly that it's a 4e pantheon. 4e. Not 5e.

You are assuming that the Dawn War happened, despite Fizban's not saying or implying that it did. And you are assuming that if it did, the 5e list of gods is the same as 4e, which isn't said anywhere in 5e.

The context of Fizbans is, the First World sundered. Afterward, each resulting world perceives Bahamut and Tiamat in some way. Along with Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron, and Dragonlance, the Dawn War also perceives them in some way. In other words, the world of the Dawn War is one of the worlds that results from the sundering of the First World.

 

[Maxperson]

The context of Fizbans is, the First World sundered. Afterward, each resulting world perceives Bahamut and Tiamat in some way. Along with Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron, and Dragonlance, the Dawn War also perceives them in some way.

Yes. Dragons broke it and are everywhere. That's not the Dawn War.

In other words, the world of the Dawn War is one of the worlds that results from the sundering of the First World.

The Dawn War is not a world. The Points of Light setting would be if the DM wants it to be.

 

[Yaarel]

Yes. Dragons broke it and are everywhere. That's not the Dawn War.

The Dawn War is not a world. The Points of Light setting would be if the DM wants it to be.

5e opens the door for the 4e world setting, including its Dawn War between astrals and primordials. It can even be one of the upcoming official settings.

4e made the Dark Sun setting part of this Dawn War.

It appears, Fyreen is likewise part of this Dawn War.

We have a list of the astrals that participated in this Dawn War.

By extension, these same astrals destroyed the crystal sphere relating to Fyreen.

At least according to the Forgotten Realms Wiki, Dawn War is part of the Forgotten Realms setting.