Doppelgangers +4LA? Is wotc crazy?

[Simulacrum]

What were they thinking? Doppelganger are maybe on the high edge of +2 or maybe +3 BUT NEVER +4.
Even more so because it has 4 Monstrous HD too. (wich results in a highly unbelievable ECL of 8!)
wotc designers need to come off the crack when assigning LA's to creatures.

If compared to other things that are ECL or LA of 4 like the half celestial or half fiend template, it becomes obvious that this must be a big error.

I hope that this gets errated soon.

 

[LuYangShih]

Not really. The Dopplegangers shapeshifting abilities, as well as the constant detect thoughts, and the other adjustments make the ECL completely justifiable.

 

[Darkness]

Níce rant.
Your prize: A free trip to the Rules forum.

 

[Simulacrum]

Not really. The Dopplegangers shapeshifting abilities, as well as the constant detect thoughts, and the other adjustments make the ECL completely justifiable.

No thats not a justification. Please check out the Half Celestial for example that also has +4 to the effective level.

MUCH better stat boni. Tons of immunitys and resistances against about everything.
Spell like abilities that makes your eyes drop out of your skull.
SR, DR +Wings, not to forget smite evil magical natural weapons and other realy cool stuff that justifies +4.
I dont have to mention that this goes all ON TOP of the base creature.

Now what does the Doppelganger have. +2 to all stats. Immune to sleep, charm, cosmetic optical change (without any real benefit exept to disguise), Detect thoughts (that is crap) WOW.
truly balanced.

Not to forget that the base creature is so weak, and has no proficiencies with anything exept its CLAWS.

Sorry if anyone truly believes this is ok than you are lost.

This is wrong people very wrong.

 

[the Jester]

Simulacrum, a half-celestial gives you things that are great in a battle, but a doppleganger gives you things that are great in a campaign.

Just because half-celestials kick more butt in a fight doesn't mean that they're going to have more plot stuff than the guy who can go anywhere unnoticed, find out whatever he needs, and be whoever he wants. Sure, your average CR 8 monster isn't going to be hurt by the doppleganger's reading its mind, but when the party's in town the doppleganger's abilities rule. Politics, intrigue, blackmail, etc. It's almost impossible for a group to keep a secret from him.

I played a doppleganger in a wacky 2e game, and trust me- ecl +4 is about right.

 

[Simulacrum]

Sorry thats not how to judge ECL+4.

It has been said tons of times that Roleplay benefits and penaltys should NEVER be calculated into the ECL.

Why? Because its plain wrong from the balancing side.
Its not like the half celestial wasnt great outside of combat too.
I'm pretty sure he is even better in most cases.
Dont forget you are ousider that gives you more skill point than the Doppelganger has. so playing a half celestial Minotaur is better than playing an doppelganger from about every aspect of gaming....people wake up

Also this is not 2e, its 3.5. And I demand a bit more for my money, than poorly judged ECL's.

Calculating the ECL of the Doppelganger I do come out with +2. About as powerful as a drow. Not more not less.
Think about it

 

[LuYangShih]

Are you even aware of the actual statistical adjustments of Dopplegangers? You neglected to mention they recieve +4 to Wisdom, not +2, and have a +4 Natural Armor bonus, as well as the skill bonuses. The Doppleganger can shapeshift into any small or medium humanoid, giving it unparalled versatility both in and out of combat.

Oh look, a Giant. I will shapeshift into a Small Creature with AC bonuses against those. Oh look, an underwater cave. I will shapeshift into a creature capable of traversing the sea. Oh look, vast hordes of monsters are coming to kill us. I will shapeshift into a Half-Celestial () and fly away. Etc. A Doppleganger can and will be prepared for almost any situation, and they are unrivaled masters of intrigue and stealth. ECL+4 looks good to me.

 

[Simulacrum]

Did you ever read the Monster manual entry for the DD?

Its not SHAPESHIFT, its CHANGE SHAPE.
Its purly cosmetical, it doesnt give you wings or lungs that are capable to breathe underwater.
It doesnt give you ANY benefits, exept for Disguise.
And +4 wis ...uhhhh. What does that get you? +2 will save great.

And you dont get the bonus for being small.

So all your *benefits* are nilch, zit. zero.

Compare to the Half Celestial its a big JOKE.

Some other great things about the doppelganger:
No armor proficiencies, No weapon proficiencies, a very small list of skills.

Doppelgangers are +2. At best. Compared to Drow they are weaker, but +2 is ok.


Also you seem to forget that the ECL 8 means that the creature should be compareable to an 8th level character.
Just about ANY 8th level character can beat up the doppelganger with his bare hands.
Great.

 

[fusangite]

Unlike magical shape-shifting abilities, the Doppleganger's is non-magical and thus, not detectable through its magical aura. That, alone, justifies one of the levels.

 

[Simulacrum]

Half Celestial: (with 4 HD = ECL 8)

normaly 60 foot fly. (good)

+1 natural AC
Daylight at will,
Smite Evil,
Protection from Evil, Bless
Aid, Detect Evil... (many more with HD)

Darkvision 60"
Immune to Disease
Electricity, Acid, Cold Resistance 10
DR 5/magic (later 10/magic)
SR (up to 35)

Natural Weapons Magical
+4 vs posion

stats:
+4 str +4con +2dex +2int +4WIS +4cha

8+ int mod for skills

THAT is ECL 4