Down with magic items!

[Angcuru]

which is why monks are always cool.

 

[Ace]

It easy to play in a low magic item game if you remember a few basic rules

The normal DC of tasks assumes you have skill adders

The to hit bonus is twigged to the presence of magic armor. Without the armor it is too easy to hit someone and combat goes out of wack

My "low magic items" rules are +2 skill points per level, a modified feat progressions (1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19- total 3 extra feats) and a "stacks with armor" defense bonus lifted from Wheel of Time

this is fairly balanced IME

 

[Henry]

And a guy from the future who fell out of the sky with them.

"He's one of Henry's men!"

You really caught me off guard with that one! Thanks, Rounser!

A couple of thoughts:

• D&D 3E has an unmistakable emphasis on magic items. To combat it, you do need to add supernatural powers somehow to this mix at the same time you de-emphasize the power. FCTF is an excellent work on this subject, as its thrust is more toward adding powers to D&D and other d20, rather than being self-contained in its own right, in the way Mutants and Masterminds is.
• In d20 Modern, the reason weapons wouldn't really be character defining is because they are part of the baseline. In D&D, even though magic is profligate, it's not really the baseline; the baseline is actually first level, and a world of peasants, petty rulers, and city watch with little or no magic. In a modern setting, the NPC police and commoners will all have guns available, and can still kill a character quickly with a good lucky shot. By contrast, a game set in a neolithic setting, where one character had discovered a metal weapon such as a longsword, the character WOULD be defined by the sword - after all, he's the guy with the invincible weapon, that does more damage than the commoners' sticks and stones, and which everyone wants.
  In Faerun, wielders of Spellfire are unfortunately individuals who are hunted for their spellfire, and they are defined by it. Defining characteristics are not the power of the item - it is the power of the item in context to normal society.

 

[Someone]

If you'd like, I could email you some of the Open Gaming Content from Four-Color to Fantasy.

Could you please send it to me, too? I´d really like to look at the rules, but for several reasons can´t buy them.

My e-mail: carlos02@mixmail.com

 

[Garmorn]

I will add one comment about the below list. It depends a lot on the DM/GM. I have played in a modern campaign where equipment did define the characters. Example was the sniper. He had a custom made sniper rifle that gave him a large advantage over most other snipers. On the other hand I have played in a D&D campaign with lots of custom made magic items where the items often blended into the background. The big difference was that one campaign concentrated on character interaction, while the other concentrated on action/combat to sustaine the campaigns.

You really caught me off guard with that one! Thanks, Rounser!

A couple of thoughts:

• D&D 3E has an unmistakable emphasis on magic items. To combat it, you do need to add supernatural powers somehow to this mix at the same time you de-emphasize the power. FCTF is an excellent work on this subject, as its thrust is more toward adding powers to D&D and other d20, rather than being self-contained in its own right, in the way Mutants and Masterminds is.
• In d20 Modern, the reason weapons wouldn't really be character defining is because they are part of the baseline. In D&D, even though magic is profligate, it's not really the baseline; the baseline is actually first level, and a world of peasants, petty rulers, and city watch with little or no magic. In a modern setting, the NPC police and commoners will all have guns available, and can still kill a character quickly with a good lucky shot. By contrast, a game set in a neolithic setting, where one character had discovered a metal weapon such as a longsword, the character WOULD be defined by the sword - after all, he's the guy with the invincible weapon, that does more damage than the commoners' sticks and stones, and which everyone wants.
  In Faerun, wielders of Spellfire are unfortunately individuals who are hunted for their spellfire, and they are defined by it. Defining characteristics are not the power of the item - it is the power of the item in context to normal society.

 

[Piratecat]

I see the point about flamethrowers and modern fireballs, but I think that there is a qualitative difference between modern technology and magic items. In many ways, magic items could be defined as items that allow you to break the rules. With the exception of items that allow you to just hurt people, many magic items fall into this category: things that let you run faster, jump father, think smarter, control someone's mind, and the like. When these sorts of items are stripped away in d20 modern, you're left with a feeling of "I need to depend on my own character's abilities, instead of those belonging to items." It's a little humbling, and I think it's a lot of fun.

 

[Victim]

Ridiculous.

Modern characters are even more defined by equipment than DnD characters. Many specialties require certain equipment, without which the specialist is useless. We don't walk, we drive or fly. Computer modeling makes analysis of many situations possible. What's more, our training assumes the use of these items. I'd have difficulty with my engineering labs without a spreadsheet program or a calculator. Modern people need their equipment.

He made three attacks in the entire game, once with a Walther ppk, one use of a flamethrower, and then the hand granade. His main characteristic was his +19 bonus to Computer Use. Durring most of the combats, he hid in the car, or under the table. Defense 13 + 12 HP + Chosen of Hastur = Get The Hell Out Of Here, if you know what I mean.

+19 Computer Use. So we have a computer specialist, DEFINED by his ability to program or hack into computer systems. If this isn't a character defined by equipment, what is? Granted, the equipment is generic and probably easy, if not cheap, to replace. Still, it's like a wizard who can use a crystal ball, but not cast scrying.

 

[Mulkhoran]

Ridiculous.

Modern characters are even more defined by equipment than DnD characters. Many specialties require certain equipment, without which the specialist is useless. We don't walk, we drive or fly. Computer modeling makes analysis of many situations possible. What's more, our training assumes the use of these items. I'd have difficulty with my engineering labs without a spreadsheet program or a calculator. Modern people need their equipment.

But as the others here have said, the equipment is a part of the baseline. If you ramped a fantasy DnD's magic item level up to match the amount of gear and equipment available in most modern campaigns, you'd have magic EVERYWHERE. Higher than the highest-magic of games. It integrates smoothly into the story. If I had lost my armor and weapons this weekend, I could have dealt with it much more easily than if I was playing DnD and lost my armor and weapons. MUCH more easily, without DM intervention.

+19 Computer Use. So we have a computer specialist, DEFINED by his ability to program or hack into computer systems. If this isn't a character defined by equipment, what is? Granted, the equipment is generic and probably easy, if not cheap, to replace. Still, it's like a wizard who can use a crystal ball, but not cast scrying.

Only if your DnD world has crystal balls *everywhere*, mass-produced, and present in some form or another in 70% of a civilized area. Being so common is one of the things that makes the characters *less* dependent on equipment.

 

[Henry]

+19 Computer Use. So we have a computer specialist, DEFINED by his ability to program or hack into computer systems. If this isn't a character defined by equipment, what is?

A character whose computer does the hacking for them.

His computer will not hack by itself. (before anyone starts telling me about old-time WAR dialers, password breakers, and viruses, I know they exist.) There still has to be a computer genius on the other end of that WIFI broadband who can apply whatever crack or progression program needed to break in. Give that same computer to the character played by Corlon, and Mr. park Ranger with the guns will say, "umm, where's the ANY key again???"

Gear supplements characters, but still requires the character to use it properly. The jokes about the Blackhawk helicopter are inclusive of this. The Blackhawk still needs a pilot, and a gunner. However, I still wouldn't have necessarily allowed a Blackhawk for a scenario that involved an investigation, because of the money, time, and subtlety required for the investigation (well, subtlety took a back-seat to a bang-up ending showcasing the talents of all the PC's, but I digress).

Quoted by Piratecat:
In many ways, magic items could be defined as items that allow you to break the rules. With the exception of items that allow you to just hurt people, many magic items fall into this category: things that let you run faster, jump father, think smarter, control someone's mind, and the like. When these sorts of items are stripped away in d20 modern, you're left with a feeling of "I need to depend on my own character's abilities, instead of those belonging to items." It's a little humbling, and I think it's a lot of fun.

In d20 Modern, the baseline is humans with guns. Of the items they had, the only thing that borderline altered their firepower was the flamethrowers, due to the controlled automatic devastation. But the rest of it was no different that what any street thug could necessarily have in New York, Chicago, or California. (In my game, the street thugs also carry grenades. It's a tough world. )

 

[Jeph]

I must admit, with my Mastercraft +3 laptop, I had a Computer Use skill of +22. But like I said, it's the chery on top--86+% of his skill came from the character, not the equipment. Can you say the same thing for your monk with the Boots of Striding and Springing, or Ring of Jumping?

And the coment about the specialists requiring equipment: Is this really any different from classic DnD? The bow twink still needs his bow, the Wizard is nuetered without spell components, the Cleric is a sitting duck with no holy simbol. Is a sniper rifle or laptop any different, really?

I think it's not so much using items that aren't the baseline, but using them and taking them for granted that irks me. I have Cha 22! Oh yeah, 4 points come from that cloak . . . funny, I'd forgotten about that . . . I don't even notice it, usually. When the cloak is one of maybe two or three magic items on the character, and they treat it as such, that's not bad, that's nifty! In fact, items that define a character are good in my opinion. It's when they fade into the background, and your +5 flaming keen longsword becomes just another weapon, that bother's me.

Food for thought: The situation also applies to many squishy sci-fi games, where characters, again, are their equipment. This time it's not a Rod of Mystic Might, but the Multi-Utility All Purpose Survival Belt. The same principal applies. When it's not the baseline, equipment tends to define a character.