Downer - I just don't get it

Why, oh why does every whiny nay sayer on these boards expect the powers-that-be in what ever facet of this industry to cow-tow to their each and every whim?

If you don't like something don't read it, use it or buy it. Do not insist that you are the only arbiter of quality in the world and that whatever you do not like or understand is de facto "bad, not worth the page it's printed on" or any of the other inanities spewed around here.

Personally, I like Downer, I'm glad it's staying, especially with the impending doom of my beloved Polyhedron, I'm very pleased to see the Erik stand up to the cesspool of negativity that is the internet and give this comic a chance to really find its audience.
 

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c-1150 said:
Why, oh why does every whiny nay sayer on these boards expect the powers-that-be in what ever facet of this industry to cow-tow to their each and every whim?

Because I'm the customer and I'm right?

Because there seem to be a lot of other customers who agree
with me, and they're right too?

You're a customer, and you're right. You, however, seem to be
outnumbered.

Erik continues to read these threads, and that's very wise of him.
Most companies would pay pretty good money to get their hands on
the whims of their customers.

BTW, I created a poll thread for those who are interested in submitting their
opinion on Downer...
 

If I may chime in again, I am glad to read Erik's decision. I should have stated in my first post that Downer does have the potential to be good, it just doesn't tap it.

I said I dislike Downer, and stated my reasons. One of it was the story - according to Erik, this will get better. Another reason was the characters. If the stories really becomes easier to grasp rather than the chaos it is currently, the characters might get developed a little better. This is why I still read it - to give it the chance to actually tap its potential. I've seen a few comics, such as OotS, that at first made me go "huh?", but grew onto me the more I read them.

I do, however, have little hope for the art in Downer. :p


And I'm still in favor of getting OotS into Dragon or Dungeon. :D
 

Piratecat said:
I liked Downer at first, and I still kind of like the art, but the story is incomprehensible and pointless. I'm hoping it gets dropped. I'd love to see it replaced by Order of the Stick.

Oh, yeah, thanks so much, because I didn't have anything else I should be doing with my afternoon. If you're going to post something that entertaining, it should at leasted be labelled "not time safe" or something.
 

Er, all the bitching on EN World is but a tiny drop in the bucket of the magazine readership. If publishers made all their decisions based on vocal minorities of predictably pissy Internauts... well, that would be foolish.
 

Joshua Randall said:
Er, all the bitching on EN World is but a tiny drop in the bucket of the magazine readership. If publishers made all their decisions based on vocal minorities of predictably pissy Internauts... well, that would be foolish.

This is very true.

But I am surprised at how many more people dislike Downer than like it in this thread. When I first saw the thread, I expected the opposite.
 

Simplicity said:
Who cares how cheap Downer is if most of your readers don't like it?

Well, I don't think one web thread on one website (albeit this one) is enough evidence to suggest that "most" of the readers don't like it. As it happens, I've included a question about Downer in a reader survey that's just being completed now, to appear on our website concurrent with the first "relaunch" issue (#114). If the majority of survey respondents don't care for the feature, that's certainly an important data point I'll have to consider when planning for future issues.

As for caring about the cost, well, a huge portion of my job involves balancing the magazine's budget, so it's probably a lot more important to me than it is to you. Paying what we do for Downer allows me to run one more full-page full-color illustration. Or two half-pagers, or four half-page maps, or a 12,000-word article.

It's very, very important to me that we develop some kind of serialized comic for the magazine. For years, similar features like Wormy and SnarfQuest helped to define Dragon, and the loss of these features, in my opinion, is a blow to that magazine. The biggest problem is one of cost. The Dragon staff has decided that a two-page "dramedy" comic is too expensive, so there are no longer any quasi-serious comics in Dragon. Sure, you've got Zogonia strips and full-page Dork Towers, but that's not the same as multiple-page arcs of things like Robinson's War or even Floyd. And in the olden days of my youth, the issue wasn't mutually exclusive. You could have both.

I've recently had the opportunity to flip through the entire Dragon archive, from issue #1 to issue #300, carefully considering each and every issue. Did all of the cartoons meet with my approval? No, not by any means (anyone remember "Pinsome"?) But the important thing is that, back in the day, Dragon was an avenue for long-form comic strips in a way that it simply isn't, anymore. And the main reason for that is cost.

If I can get a two-page comic for a reasonable price, it makes it easier to establish and develop Dungeon as an outlet for this art form. If you don't like Downer, wait a bit, and we'll eventually be running something else. I'm not immune to the negative comments on this thread, but on the other hand I personally like Kyle's art style and sense of humor, and I'm willing to see where he's going to take this story. Do I think the story could be more accessible? Sure. Do I think missing a single issue really hurts the understanding of the current storyline? Absolutely. Is that something I'd like to address as time goes by? Yes, because I like Downer, and I think it's worth it. I've asked Kyle to throw together a "the story so far" article for issue #114, which we're already positioning as a "jumping on" point for new readers. It's my hope that this will make it easier for new people to get into the storyline.

If you don't like Downer, and feel that a "waste" of two pages is sufficient to cancel a subscription or stop buying the magazine, so be it. Same with the one-page Wil Wheaton column mentioned in Keith's open letter, which seems to have upset about as many people as it's amused despite the fact that the first column hasn't even appeared. I've spent the last six months, essentially, developing a completely new format for the magazine based on the feedback of readers in the form of letters and messages posted to this and other message boards. I've jumbled all of those ideas together, added a bunch of my own, and have come up with something that I think people will really like. Downer is a part of that package. In about two months, anyone who's interested will get a chance to take a look at what we've done and make a decision about whether Dungeon is a more attractive or less attractive purchase. I submit that that decision will be easier if it is made on the magazine as a whole, rather than on specific pages that don't appeal to you.

It's wrong to expect every single page of a 100-page magazine to match your preferences and play styles exactly. There are going to be pages in Dungeon that you think are a waste. It's my job to make sure that the number of pages you _do_ like outweigh the ones that you don't.

Here's hoping I'm doing a decent job. :)

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dungeon Magazine
 


Erik Mona said:
As it happens, I've included a question about Downer in a reader survey that's just being completed now, to appear on our website concurrent with the first "relaunch" issue (#114). If the majority of survey respondents don't care for the feature, that's certainly an important data point I'll have to consider when planning for future issues.

I don't know whether "most" readers like it or not. I don't think anyone does. The backlash of this thread did surprise me, however, and I think
it's wise to at least get the position of your readers in general.

It's very, very important to me that we develop some kind of serialized comic for the magazine. For years, similar features like Wormy and SnarfQuest helped to define Dragon, and the loss of these features, in my opinion, is a blow to that magazine. The biggest problem is one of cost. The Dragon staff has decided that a two-page "dramedy" comic is too expensive, so there are no longer any quasi-serious comics in Dragon. Sure, you've got Zogonia strips and full-page Dork Towers, but that's not the same as multiple-page arcs of things like Robinson's War or even Floyd. And in the olden days of my youth, the issue wasn't mutually exclusive. You could have both.

I agree. I love the comics of both Dungeon and Dragon.
They're practically the only part of Dragon that I read anymore.
I even like the art of Downer... The concept itself just doesn't do it for me.
And if you're going to give me a forum, then darn it, I'm going to
fight for every page of good content that I can get.

I know its frustrating to be at the bashing end of yet another thread,
Erik. But as I'm sure you understand, the only reason people get so
vehement about Dungeon is that they love it so much. Dungeon is
a great magazine.
 


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